(W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

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Espros
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice

Post by Espros »

ahmannar wrote:I´m trying now this campaign and overall i must say that you have in here quite a promising start and story (currently on the "Silk Road" scenario). Overall i would say that there's two things that stand out in the campaign as, let's say, odd and that probably are not easy to be changed at this stage:

1-> Although the recruit list is huge, only half of it can be used efficiently. Units such as the thug, footpad and skeletons are too immobile to be used on the sands. The giant leech is a nice addition and 1/2 per scenario can be used, but more than that is too much of a sink in resources;

2-> Beginning with the first story scenario, there's a lot of information to be assimilated in a short amount of time. The combination of that scenario, along with the explanation of Idyr on the next one, makes for quite an exposition all of a sudden.

Playing currently on medium difficulty with BfW 1.12.6. Originally i went with hard, but the second scenario scared me and lowered the difficulty while replaying the campaign from start. Probably was not necessary.
First off, thank you very much for playing the campaign (and including your replays)! Any and all feedback here helps me improve upon the story as well as the strategic elements of each scenario. Those are two odd things that I have noticed myself, and I’ve thought of a couple ways to fix them. I do attempt to give you a large pool of recruits to choose from to demonstrate how Parandel is one of the most diverse nations in Wesnothian history (though arguably out of obligation and necessity). However, the human units, or the footpads and thugs, aren’t very viable on the desert landscape (on which a majority of the post-Fall world has become and thus on which much of the campaign is fought upon). In my playthroughs, I don’t believe I’ve ever recruited any thugs, although I’ve recruited 1-2 footpads to help against the undead. The natural problem with any desert based campaign is mobility. Thus I’ve thought of possible solutions for interesting but mostly ornamental recruits like the skeleton and thug.

- Instead of Mal Idyr providing Devanar with skeletons, skeleton archers, and ghosts, he can instead bring only ghosts and the Chocobone line. I’ve found potential sprites for them, and if it would be helpful I can create Level 1 & 3 units based on the Chocobone, which still provides Devanar with undead, but ones with mobility. You'd ordinarily think an Ancient Lich would employ any and all undead at their disposal, but its explainable from a storytelling standpoint due to a need for haste in finding the Rod of Justice and therefore a need for mobile units.
- The thugs (and possibly footpads as well) can be replaced with Aragwaith Spearmen, which are just as mobile as any other Aragwaith unit on sand.
- Wild humans, which are far more mobile on sand than those from the core data, can replace the thug and the footpad. This would provide more mobile units that have impact melee instead of the abundant pierce melee that would be created by the inclusion of the prior possibilities.
- Reduce the cost of the Giant Leech from 31 to 27 to make it a bit less of a resource eater.

As for the overload on exposition, that’s a old and bad habit of mine when it comes to writing. Scenario three’s dialogue does set up the basis of the quest, but as for Idyr’s back story at the beginning of five, I’ve questioned how much of that is necessary for the reader to understand the Soul Jewel and how much of it is a biography. It is very possible for me to shorten his digression from the book that it is to a shorter story, with the details discussed in later scenarios, if at all. However, due to the conclusion of the campaign, the storyboard, and the development of the conflict, I do need to explain some of his backstory with regard to his service in Wesnoth before Scenario 8 at the earliest and 10 at the latest. Much of it is just information for the campaign’s timeline, if you're the type of player that likes to know the in-depth parts of the setting and specific details about all the characters. I'll definitely consider revising much of the early prose and dialogue to make it less overwhelming.

And yes, scenario two is quite scary, haha. Specifically:
Spoiler:
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice

Post by Delicius169 »

LIttle bug: In scenario The Three trials I have 3 spectres in my recall list, but in next scenario Unforgettable I lost them without explanation.

Units:
Afiriah- the summonig mage is quite useless unit- I have decided to chose the way of watter for her (to get at least slow ability), but she is terrible slow
the thug- how about make from it another kind of unit? Some kind of dessert thug- with changed defenses and movement?

Some maps are too much big- and a bit empty-Breaking throught and The Silk road
The sentiels- this one is big enough for me- at least I used the lenght of this map to win- I lured those fast elementalist unit (dangerous as hell). I really liked this scenario, I needed to replay my game (my reccalls were undead- really weak against elementals), recalled just my supporting units and recruted swordmans and few archers.

The spider s nest- how about giving those little spiders poison? They are terrible weak. It was nice to find some units.

The trial- is really nice scenario-and you discover a lot about your heroes :-)

The Unforgettable- I dont know how to win this scenario without saveloading. It took me 7 realoads, till I was attacked by Vikreon- without killing me (or almost killing me) on spot. And then I could kill him. If I run away in the beginning, there are too many spirits...

Short on time- the map´s size is ok for me- thought it makes enemy less dangerous- he cannot coordinate all of his soldiers at once-imps arrived when I was done with the rest of enemy.

I liked storyline, it was nice to get feeling of Invasion of the Unknown.....
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice

Post by ahmannar »

Your ideas regarding the new units seem very good. While it's true that not all recruits in a campaign need to have the same level of importance, these ones seem like, at least until the "Process of elimination" scenario (the one i´m currently at), have no real use because of the mobility problem.

Since this is an WIP, it might also be difficult to spread the information and know exactly the best places. I don't think its something that you must worry much because the story itself is very good and the nature of an WIP makes it natural to occur improvements in the future.

While the sixth scenario did indeed took out some of the recalls accumulated until then, it didn´t put a huge blow on the recall list (only the human units in this case). The saurian healers and the ghost units line, so far, seem like the backbone of the army and they either are heavily protected in here or not used at all due to being inefficient against the elementals. I'm saying this because, since you said it's supposed to be an army-eater, you could have wanted to be more than it seemed to me.

While the sixth scenario was indeed the most difficult until now, the seventh scenario seems like the easiest one currently. Although there's quite a swarm of enemy units, the quality of the units of the player is high enough now that one can kill multiple enemies without risk. A higher use of poison and/or bats could make the difference in here.

EDIT: After concluding the "Process of elimination" scenario, the loyal brain drainer disappears from the recall list of the player. Also, int the " The Unforgettable" scenario, all undead units get wiped out of the recall list.
Is the "Unforgettable" supposed to be winnable without access to recruits or recalls? I don´t see how this can be accomplished without those two options.
I must say the links that you make between your story and the canon of wesnoth are very welcomed, i'm looking forward for the continuation.

EDIT2: Nevermind, i´m dumb, didn´t noticed the castles on the sides of the map :doh: . Gonna try this again eventually.
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice

Post by Espros »

ahmannar wrote:Your ideas regarding the new units seem very good. While it's true that not all recruits in a campaign need to have the same level of importance, these ones seem like, at least until the "Process of elimination" scenario (the one i´m currently at), have no real use because of the mobility problem.

Since this is an WIP, it might also be difficult to spread the information and know exactly the best places. I don't think its something that you must worry much because the story itself is very good and the nature of an WIP makes it natural to occur improvements in the future.

While the sixth scenario did indeed took out some of the recalls accumulated until then, it didn´t put a huge blow on the recall list (only the human units in this case). The saurian healers and the ghost units line, so far, seem like the backbone of the army and they either are heavily protected in here or not used at all due to being inefficient against the elementals. I'm saying this because, since you said it's supposed to be an army-eater, you could have wanted to be more than it seemed to me.

While the sixth scenario was indeed the most difficult until now, the seventh scenario seems like the easiest one currently. Although there's quite a swarm of enemy units, the quality of the units of the player is high enough now that one can kill multiple enemies without risk. A higher use of poison and/or bats could make the difference in here.

EDIT: After concluding the "Process of elimination" scenario, the loyal brain drainer disappears from the recall list of the player. Also, int the " The Unforgettable" scenario, all undead units get wiped out of the recall list.
Is the "Unforgettable" supposed to be winnable without access to recruits or recalls? I don´t see how this can be accomplished without those two options.
I must say the links that you make between your story and the canon of wesnoth are very welcomed, i'm looking forward for the continuation.

EDIT2: Nevermind, i´m dumb, didn´t noticed the castles on the sides of the map :doh: . Gonna try this again eventually.
I'm looking into what causes the sudden loss of undead units and the brain drainer- I have an idea as to what causes them but I'll have to do a bit of investigating into some of S9 and S10's code to know for sure. I've decided to add some poison to the baby spiders and increase the bats' gold for S7 as well to make it more challenging, and I'll up some of the gold values in S6 as well to make it closer to the atmosphere of an overwhelming test that I was going for. Unforgettable is a bit challenging because one starts so close to Vikren and so far away from the castles, what I may implement in the future is some code that enables Adria to teleport our heroes to those locations (so Vikren doesn't OTK Devanar/Adria/Mal Idyr and the player can begin recruiting right away). I'm happy you like the links between TRoJ and the canon- I spent a lot of time thinking about different outcomes and loose ends in Wesnoth's history and where I could meld my ideas with them.
Delicius169 wrote:LIttle bug: In scenario The Three trials I have 3 spectres in my recall list, but in next scenario Unforgettable I lost them without explanation.

Units:
Afiriah- the summonig mage is quite useless unit- I have decided to chose the way of watter for her (to get at least slow ability), but she is terrible slow
the thug- how about make from it another kind of unit? Some kind of dessert thug- with changed defenses and movement?

Some maps are too much big- and a bit empty-Breaking throught and The Silk road
The sentiels- this one is big enough for me- at least I used the lenght of this map to win- I lured those fast elementalist unit (dangerous as hell). I really liked this scenario, I needed to replay my game (my reccalls were undead- really weak against elementals), recalled just my supporting units and recruted swordmans and few archers.

The spider s nest- how about giving those little spiders poison? They are terrible weak. It was nice to find some units.

The trial- is really nice scenario-and you discover a lot about your heroes :-)

The Unforgettable- I dont know how to win this scenario without saveloading. It took me 7 realoads, till I was attacked by Vikreon- without killing me (or almost killing me) on spot. And then I could kill him. If I run away in the beginning, there are too many spirits...

Short on time- the map´s size is ok for me- thought it makes enemy less dangerous- he cannot coordinate all of his soldiers at once-imps arrived when I was done with the rest of enemy.

I liked storyline, it was nice to get feeling of Invasion of the Unknown.....
I'm looking into the undead loss, hopefully it should be solved by the next release. What I may end up doing with the thugs and footpads is editing their base units slightly into desert versions (as you suggested) to make them more mobile, as I'm realizing that most of the faster units I'm adding in are melee-pierce and the player will likely need some melee-impact at some point. I'm also going to go back once all 21 scenarios are finished and fix all the negative space and terrain issues on all the maps, but for now my main goal is eliminating major bugs and completing a rough version of the campaign. That being said, I'll be making some major adjustments to S10 to make it less impossible. I'm glad you liked the story! I do think the post-Fall world of Idrya has a lot to offer (and there are a lot of stories to be told about what happened), which is why I specifically chose this time period to work with.
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice

Post by Konrad2 »

Welcome back and thanks for porting the campaign. :)
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice

Post by Espros »

Konrad2 wrote: February 3rd, 2021, 9:46 am Welcome back and thanks for porting the campaign. :)
Thank you for the welcome - it's good to be back! I finally found the time during quarantine to churn out the first full version of the campaign after all this time - I hope you enjoy it :)
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by Espros »

Version 1.0.1 is now out on 1.14! Mostly bug fixes to S15 "Awakening" so the game doesn't become unplayable, and some other small changes as well.
Known Issues
As it exists now, there are more than a few parts of the campaign that are not debug-proof - particularly S24 "Finale" and S25 "The Rod of Justice" (if you use n or cl to skip S24 before Erya appears and Devanar attacks and teleports her, there will be no stored variable to unstore at the beginning of S25, so Devanar will not spawn, and the level will be unplayable).
1.0.1 Changelog
S7
-made some edits to sighted events; ghosts and giant leeches no longer speak to the Death Knight and Ghast locked in cave-rooms

S11
-minor dialogue edits and additional proofreading

S15
-fixed a bug that caused the game to be stuck on a black screen when unstoring any of Adria's units
-extended the turn limits on all difficulties by 10

S17
-fixed an oversight that allowed Raourshin Ohn's death to not result in defeat

S18
-extended the turn limits on all difficulties by 10
-specified/clarified mid-scenario objectives to be clearer

S24
-made Raelyan's AI more cautious
-gave Raelyan a +2 bump in base income across all difficulties

Units
-weakened the Eidolon's melee and ranged attacks by 1 each
-updated the spider lich sprites
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

you use n or cl to skip S24 before Erya appears and Devanar attacks and teleports her, there will be no stored variable to unstore at the beginning of S25, so Devanar will not spawn, and the level will be unplayable).
This explains why that scenario crashed for me. Well, I have one complaint. Why did you make that 100 HP Lich in S24 insta-heal from attacks? This was one of the most frustrating things I have had to experience. I attack him with a particular hero, he doesn't heal but this Lich then decides to casually move and attack my ancient banner and instaheal from 25 to 100... -_-

Ignoring all the bugs, all the frustrating boss fights which made me consider dropping the campaign, I find the story and setting to be very compelling and rather good.
Spoiler:
Additionally, I guess this is the only campaign where all factions of the Era of Chaos have been used (with the exception of the Vampires, I guess?)
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by Espros »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: February 17th, 2021, 7:16 am This explains why that scenario crashed for me. Well, I have one complaint. Why did you make that 100 HP Lich in S24 insta-heal from attacks? That was one of the most frustrating things I have had to experience. I attack him with a particular hero, he doesn't heal but this Lich then decides to casually move and attack my ancient banner and instaheal from 25 to 100... -_-
Firstly, thank you for playing the whole campaign - TRoJ has been an off/on project for me for 5+ years now, so this feedback means a lot to me! I do feel bad that the boss fights, and this aspect in particular were so frustrating - S13/S16/S19/S25 are all levels that will surely see some sizable changes before the month is out. I initially meant for them to be highlights rather than insufferable challenges - definitely was not my intent in terms of game-design, and I hope that despite those levels, the playthrough still had some fun+exciting moments for you.

Some context about that choice in S24 specifically:
The Lich
Initially, Mal Ganror was supposed to be just a generic lich/plain enemy leader in the final battle - but then I noticed that if the player defeated all four initial bosses before Erya arrives with the remaining two enemy leaders on turn 13 (which seemed unlikely, but still possible), the scenario would end prematurely before Erya arrived (as a result of the victory condition being defeat all enemy leaders). My initial solve for that was just to force side 1 and side 2's chance to hit one of the first four enemy leaders equal to zero, and then try to undo that once Erya arrived, but that resulted in a new bug in S25 where Devanar's chance to hit all enemy units was zero, and so then S25 became unwinnable.

From there, my next best idea for some sort of code that would make one of the enemy leaders temporarily "immortal" until Erya's appearance on turn 13 was the boss healing code I'd used before in S13 and S16 - not ideal, but it seemed like it would address the win before turn 13 issue. As of right now, it should work such that the respective bosses are only healed when attacked by our heroes during stage 1 of their fights, and not when they themselves attack side 1 - if the latter is also the case then that must be another bug/oversight on my part.

The lich's HP had to be greater than 80 or so (with a -40% arcane resistance, Mal Idyr and Devanar, who are the strongest units available to side 1 in the campaign, are both capable of hitting him for a maximum of 80 points of damage, so even with an insta-heal event, they could OHKO the lich if he didn't have the help of an HP-boosting object), so that's why he has a 100 HP. For storyline justifications/rationale, we'll just say that uhh... Surely it was another one of Erya's mysterious gifts of magical power to her subordinates! That "gift"/the insta-heal code was then planned to stop once Erya had arrived.

In hindsight, I suppose I could've just changed the victory condition, added a variable that added once every time one of the enemy leaders in S24 was killed, and then when that variable hit numerical_equals=7, it could've triggered the ending victory dialogue that fired S25. :doh: :oops:

Come to think of it right now, I'll just make that change and completely do away with Ganror's insta-heal event in S24 in the next release. That would've been a lot simpler and I'm a bit embarrassed I'm only just now thinking of it. :whistle: :shock:

The tl;dr version: I wasn't sure how to tweak the level to fix that problem, so I salvaged some code I'd already written as a supposed quick-fix.
Some context about the boss battles in general:
Bosses
While the set piece of the campaign was always intended to be S9 "The Three Trials," I wanted the battles against the campaign's main villains to be climactic highlights, or at least a little bit out of the ordinary - but I think when it came down to actually designing their gameplay I missed the mark there :doh: my initial fear was that if you just had to kill the boss once/plainly, like you could another regular enemy leader, it would feel anticlimactic, and so I overshot the mark quite a ways by correlating (too much) difficulty with a better scenario.

The insta-heal aspect/boss regen event is decidedly not a piece of my code I particularly like - it exists because I wanted each boss battle to have more than one stage + incorporate some special feature, and the only boss I felt like I could story-wise justify killing and then reviving/mutating into a different form was Erya, so I needed some kind of stall tactic that allowed some bosses to be guaranteed to survive to stage 2 - in S13 and S16's case for Alazarik and Aegis, one stage where they were invulnerable, and then a second stage where you could defeat them. Edangor's is different in S19 purely because I felt like I'd already used the same device (destroy x artifact/power object that strengthens the boss/kill y and z number of minions that power the boss, in order to make them vulnerable) twice before.

Erya's boss battle, I've heard, is especially frustrating because of her (3) respawns (I felt like since S19 had 3 stages, and S13/S16 both had 2, then Erya's needed to have at least as many as Edangor if not one more, or it wouldn't make sense saying she was the strongest of the three Demon Lords - I think, again, another mistake of associating length of boss fights with more fun boss fights. Admittedly, I haven't done much S25 playtesting without the help of the bandit you have the option of sparing in S21 "Healing" and her cactoses, so I'd imagine it's quite the struggle without access to slows/if the player chooses to execute her). I think when playtesting the boss battles, I forgot how they'd function for someone on their first playthrough, and so I lost scope.

In the interest of making them less hellish, future releases will very likely see:
-more clear directives to the player to concentrate their initial efforts/strategies on killing minions 1st, and waiting to kill the boss later
-the max HP of all four bosses lowered
-slowing Erya upon each respawn in S25 so she can't OHKO Devanar
-overall, some other yet-to-be-determined strategic element that gives the player an alternative to relentlessly spamming summonable Fire Guardians/Ethereal Orbs/Giant Leeches and suiciding them into the boss until they've been chipped down low enough to kill with the hero
-Erya getting smaller HP upgrades with each respawn in S25
-Potentially, removing Erya's absorbed "physical endurance" ability so the leeches can inflict solid damage with Devanar's L4 Leadership boost in S25
-Devanar getting better healing access/more time to heal in S25
All that aside though, I'm so happy you liked the story! For a little while I considered incorporating some sort of morality system, perhaps not unlike the one seen in Ani's Legacy, but that seemed like a lot of extra work/code I had no idea how to implement, so I thought I'd just focus on the dialogue and speaker options instead.

As for the vampires,
Spoiler:
And again, thank you for playing TRoJ and sticking through it despite all the bugs/frustrations! :)
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by Konrad2 »

The female variation of Summoner of the Wind uses the male animation for attacking.
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by wuxiangjinxing »

Maybe you can use the summoners (or some other factions) from era of magic? This campaign starts in desert so it would be a nice integration.
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by egallager »

OK I am just starting this campaign... how do the characters know Uria's gender when all they've heard of her so far is her name? Yes, the "a" is generally a feminine ending in the Romance languages, but the Uriah of the Bible was male though, so there's reasons for people to guess either way... (and yes, I know Wesnoth's Uria is actually female, but I don't see how the characters would be able to know that this early)
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by Konrad2 »

Long Road Ahead
The question about the second Demon Lord totally confused me. When did they hear this name? I don't remember.

Adria has no ellipses (and she never had them).

The purple side doesn't show up in the statistics, even after their leader arrives.

Afiriah speaks as if she knows the point of the mission, but so far no one told her what the quest is about.
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by Espros »

wuxiangjinxing wrote: February 18th, 2021, 5:19 am Maybe you can use the summoners (or some other factions) from era of magic? This campaign starts in desert so it would be a nice integration.
Given that this is an Era of Chaos campaign, and already includes quite a variety of factions, I don't feel like it would make much sense to include EoMa units, but I appreciate the suggestion!
egallager wrote: February 19th, 2021, 8:09 pm OK I am just starting this campaign... how do the characters know Uria's gender when all they've heard of her so far is her name? Yes, the "a" is generally a feminine ending in the Romance languages, but the Uriah of the Bible was male though, so there's reasons for people to guess either way... (and yes, I know Wesnoth's Uria is actually female, but I don't see how the characters would be able to know that this early)
In earlier versions of the campaign, the enemy leader in S1 mentioned something along the lines of "delivering her [Uria's] wrath." It seems in the most recent version of the campaign, when I was doing the dialogue overhaul before releasing the first full version, I changed the sentence structure of that leader's dialogue such that he now says "their" (in reference to both the Emperor and Uria) - that's a good catch, and I'll change that piece of dialogue back to its earlier versions to include the "she" so that it's clearer.
Konrad2 wrote: February 17th, 2021, 7:31 pm The female variation of Summoner of the Wind uses the male animation for attacking.
That's certainly odd - should be a quick fix I can handle in its unit file + implement in the 1.0.2 version.
Konrad2 wrote: February 19th, 2021, 9:04 pm Long Road Ahead
The question about the second Demon Lord totally confused me. When did they hear this name? I don't remember.
From the code of S1 "A New Enemy,"
Spoiler:
Konrad2 wrote: February 19th, 2021, 9:04 pm Adria has no ellipses (and she never had them).

The purple side doesn't show up in the statistics, even after their leader arrives.
I've had a fairly consistent issue with both Adria and Erya (and sometimes Valgatha, too), where they're followed about by an "image not found" background despite their actual sprites seemingly being fine - I've tried getting rid of the ellipses line in their unit files, then re-introducing those lines, cutting the {MAGENTA_IS_THE_TEAM_COLOR} code from their unit files, and it still seems to be a persistent issue. All of this is to say her lacking ellipses is a consequence of that, and hopefully something I'll repair in the 1.0.2 release.

The purple side being hidden is an oversight on my part; that'll be fixed in the next release + thanks for pointing that out!
Konrad2 wrote: February 19th, 2021, 9:04 pm Afiriah speaks as if she knows the point of the mission, but so far no one told her what the quest is about.
Are you referring to her dialogue in this event? Or throughout S5 as a whole? That is a good catch though, and I'll change her generic "ending line of encouragement" here to something that makes more sense in-story.
Spoiler:
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Re: (W.I.P.) The Rod of Justice [1.12/1.14]

Post by Konrad2 »

FTR, for multiple lines of code

Code: Select all

this
looks
better.
The Sentinels
interruptng -> interrupting

Btw, how am I supposed to beat this on hard? The enemies have 3 times as much gold as I do, and most of them are fliers, so I can't make good use of the terrain.
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