Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5]

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Kwandulin
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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Kwandulin » October 15th, 2016, 2:03 pm

You're right, the lvl 2 Masun advancing to a lvl 4 Saray is an oversight. Right now, the Masun and Saray just got a visual connection (which, I think, is better than the Saray-Shuja one). Other than that, you're also right that he currently doesn't fit there, as he is too offense oriented. I had aimed to make a defense-only ability for the Saray that blocks the first attack then, but I didn't get to it. He'd certainly fit better in the Masun line then.

I hope you also enjoy the rest!

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by ahmannar » October 15th, 2016, 5:22 pm

Since this campaign is the definition of addictive for me, i played trough it again (!!!!) and got some more feedback, which consists of revisions to the dialogues (didn´t do it for all the text because it's quite huge), replays of the new state of the campaign (for some reason the option to take a replay wasn´t going off on the cloud river, so i just saved one turn), comments on some things on each level and 3/4 points regarding the balance of the campaign.
Hope that this can be useful when you eventually work on this again. It feels much more balanced right now, good job :)
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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Kwandulin » October 15th, 2016, 5:47 pm

You're insane :lol: ! Your efforts were really useful to me and I guess this playthrough will once again prove to be very valuable, thanks!
I've edited the opening post and included your list of secrets/items/loyals. The list surely will be very useful for the ordinary mortal player!

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by ahmannar » October 16th, 2016, 10:29 am

I forgot to write something in the previous document and it's not very long, so i'll just put it in here.
I've not directly experienced it on all scenarios and looking trough the WML for this is not so easy, but have you thought of giving dialogue for most of the defeat conditions (a unit getting killed that is required to live trough the campaign or failing to achieve some condition like protecting someone or ending in the turn limit given)?
If you look at the mainline campaigns for example (and some of the UMC, although it's not so common there), there's dialogue whenever an important unit gets killed, resulting in a defeat. It's usually someone grieving the death, saying how they can´t continue without them, mostly just 1 short sentence after it happens.
Regarding the other type of defeat, the dialogue in "Pearl of the Desert" is a nice example of this where, if someone attacks Ilriel, they say how she won´t be healing anyone anymore.

EDIT: Don´t know if this is intended or not but, in my last playtrough, Whadet died and the game didn´t end there. Since he has a silver crow and is stated in the defeat conditions that no units with a silver crown can die, it seems like this souldn´t have happened.
Last edited by ahmannar on October 16th, 2016, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Kwandulin » October 16th, 2016, 11:33 am

The death messages are very low priority, since the campaign itself is intended to be on the easier side and I wouldn't expect too many losses anyway.

Regarding Wahdet: Wahdet is a strange character, because he is an optional hero that isn't mandatory to finish the campaign, yet he still has the typical hero AMLA. I'm not sure how to handle him right now, I'll either have to remove his AMLA stuff or make him mandatory. I lean towards the latter.

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by ahmannar » October 16th, 2016, 6:08 pm

Making him mandatory, while keeping his "alternative advancement" optional could be a good compromise. He has some interesting AMLA and it would be a shame to lose them.

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Inky » October 18th, 2016, 6:35 am

I'm about halfway through the campaign so far (campaign version 1.11.0, Medium difficulty) - really amazing job!! The artwork is beautiful, gameplay is very fun and the storyline is interesting too. I loved all the awesome custom units (my favorite was the wyvern rider!). I also really liked the use of UMC music tracks.

Anyway here are my notes so far - I read ahmannar's recent comments to make sure I'm not repeating anything (also, I'm very impressed by how many times ahmannar's managed to play through the campaign and provide great feedback every time!)

Bugs:

-In S2 (Drought) and S6 (The Pearl of the Desert), the gold carryover doesn't have carryover_add=yes so you end up with minimum gold in the next scenarios.
-Uthain's "Meister Petz" AMLA doesn't heal him to full.
-The Maequil's fortify ability description says it gives all allies +10% physical resistances, but actually it only does so on defense.

Other thoughts / nitpicks:

-About the Easy difficulty which got removed, I think it's good to have it there just as an option. I played on Medium and still found some scenarios such as S3 Peril and S7 (Face to Face with the Snake) pretty challenging.
-I was under the false impression that I had 10 turns in Six Feet Under; maybe instead of having 10 turns and the objectives "Survive until turn 10", having 9 turns and the objectives "Survive until the end of turns" would make it clearer that the 9th turn is the last one.
-In S6 The Pearl of the Desert I expected the allied Hurasch to stay put since their dialogue seemed to indicate that they would protect Ridwan/Ilriel. It's potentially a nasty surprise to have the Hurasch leave their positions to attack, leaving room for an enemy Monawish to skirmish in and attack Ridwan or Ilriel.
-S8 Isanbar says there's an early finish bonus even though there's no turn limit. And maybe S7 (Face to face with the snake) should have no gold carryover because any carryover would be gone after S8, and this way the player wouldn't have to worry about preserving gold in S7.
-Maybe the catapults could get a ranged attack, because it is strange that they have no attack at all.
-The heroes' AMLAs seem too powerful in general; for example I was surprised that Ilriel, who seems like a glass cannon type magic unit, can get huge amounts of HP from her AMLAs.
-Uthain being on the recall list is interesting, but I can't think of a single scenario where I wouldn't want to recall him, so I think it would be the same if he were just autorecalled (with -20 starting gold to compensate). In The Pearl of the Desert, you can actually save 20 gold by moving to the dwarf merchant's tent before recalling Uthain, because Uthain will get automatically get recalled there. Also, a player could theoretically cause problems by dismissing him from the recall list.
-Nuvdael costs upkeep despite being a hero unit.
-When moving onto an item with a unit that can't use it, it would be nice to get a hint as to which units can use it. For some items (such as the tablet) it is hard to guess which unit it is for. Also, I think it would make sense for the buckler in S7 to also be equippable by a Masun / Maequil / Saray since those units use a shield.
Typos (I've left out the ones already mentioned by ahmannar):
Scenario 1 Line 159: How is this possible, Iriel? -> Ilriel

Scenario 3 line 479: Did your Nuvdael tricked us and enlisted the elves unhappy with your leaving to force you back home to the Southwoods? -> Did your Nuvdael trick us and enlist the elves unhappy with your leaving to force you back home to the Southwoods?

Scenario 6 line 635: teached -> taught
Scenario 6 line 1059: After taking his advice, we could made out a woman of the forests of the northwest. -> found (?)

Scenario 7 line 7: Ilriel feel to her knees and bemoaned the loss of the woses. -> fell
Scenario 7 line 11: The death of the wose population date back to early ages, -> dated / dates
Scenario 7 line 285: I didn't know things were going that bad. -> badly

Scenario 8 line 218: Things weren't going that good for us. -> well

Ridwan's description line 79: througout -> throughout, focussed -> focused
line 81: procclaimed -> proclaimed, thron -> throne

Khazran's description: creauture -> creature
I have a couple comments on ahmannar's text revisions (I hope ahmannar doesn't mind):
-Most of the revisions were about using contractions (It's instead of it is, etc.), but I think that sometimes it is better not to use them. It's true that you'd almost never hear someone use 'it is' instead of 'it's' etc. while speaking, but I think Wesnoth dialogue usually aims for a more formal / archaic tone, and writing out the words fully can help set this tone.
-There were a couple places where I believe a comma was removed incorrectly, for example:
Scenario 1: The bond between you and the forest shall not diminish, Ilriel. -> The bond between you and the forest shall not diminish Ilriel.
Scenario 2: Then we have to take action, Dawoud. -> Then we have to take action Dawoud.
I think the original dialogue, with the commas, is correct.

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by ahmannar » October 18th, 2016, 8:33 am

I fully agree with your opinion, InkY; i got too much caught up with trying to "correct" the text while not even realizing that most of my revisions could remove some of the "ancient" feel of the game. I also wasn´t aware that the use of the commas was indeed the correct one, so thanks for clearing that up.
It´s easy to be committed when the campaign itself has this kind of quality, if it wasn´t for Kwandulin´s work i wouldn´t be doing this :P .

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Paulomat4 » October 18th, 2016, 6:05 pm

Hey,

it's me again. :) I played quite a bit, I'm on the scenario Tharwya now. I just want to say, great work! Really!

A few things that I have noticed until now:

Knockback ability:
-The first time I used it I had a situation that was quite weird where the unit that was knocked back wasn't able to move to the terrain behind it and moved to a terrain hex next to it. It also took a weird way to be moved there, pretty weird over all. I can't reproduce it though and it happened only once, so no idea...
-I find it weird that units are knocked back, even if the knockback attack doesn't hit. also in my opinion, knockback should take effect directly after the first successful hit, stop the combat and move the unit. It should not take effect after the whole fight has already been fought in my opinion.



Items:
-I find it really weird how you select the units that are able to wear a weapon. Why can't the elvish bloodmaiden and the elvish hero line wear normal swords? Why can't elvish avengers and the fiery arrows? (even weirder the "elvish" bow that can be bought in tharwya that can be worn by everyone except elves :lol: ) Maybe you could revise every single item and try to think of who can wear it?

-I kinda dislike the idea of unique items that can only be worn by certain units. Like Uthain's regeneration stone. It feels like I'm missing out on something. (Sometimes people just want to achieve everything an that makes it impossible :/)

-It felt kinda bad when the sword that could be picked up in "A whisper in the Sands" was pretty much exactly the same as the previous two swords that could be collected.
the only difference was that it changes the damage type to cold, but that's not even that much of an advantage. I don't know, how about +1 strike, +1 damage instead? that would differentiate it a bit at least and make it worth the extra work needed to get it.

Uthain:
-Uthain feels pretty weird as a unit. First of all I would really make him a mandatory hero as well. Same goes for the other heroes as well I find. There's no hero unit that I wouldn't want to recall in any scenario, be it nuvdael, uthain or azyan. Your way of handling them was worth a try, but I still like the "normal" way of handling heroes better.

-Why does he has such weird movement cost? He's super slow in caves and on mountains and hills. Also In his base form I would give him 6mp. 4 or 5mp and standard dwarf movecosts would be better. You can still give him a few more mp when he chooses the bear rider upgrade.


Speaking of fast dwarves...


The scenario beneath the sands:
-The dwarvish miners have 6mp when they get the quick trait and have much better movement costs than you in caves. That makes it almost impossible to hinder them from walking straight into their enemies. I'd give them 4mp and make sure that they don't get the quick trait.

-The green crystals also just worked the exact first time that i used them. later crystals don't work.

Tharwya:
list of secrets/loyals/items wrote:-> If a level 4 unit moves to the hex 10 38, a loyal unit may join the player’s side (Wahash). If that level 4 unit is a Genie-Kabir, another loyal unit may join the player’s side (Djinn-Wahash).
-How am I supposed to get a genie-Kabier until there? I wouldn't even know how to get a genie at all :shock:

-The item elvish bow has as description that it increases the bearer's damage by +3%. It should say +3 instead, i think.

That's all for now :)
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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Kwandulin » October 18th, 2016, 9:02 pm

Very good observations here, thanks for that (and I really need to get that knockback right . . .)! Nothing much to say, other than that I agree on most of the stuff.
The heroes' AMLAs seem too powerful in general; for example I was surprised that Ilriel, who seems like a glass cannon type magic unit, can get huge amounts of HP from her AMLAs
Yeah, I think that is spot on. Currently, some players prefer taking the 'Heroic AMLA' before picking one out of the three 'higher' AMLAs, which wasn't intended, as the 'Heroic AMLA' should just replace the weaker default AMLA that is known from the default units. I'll either have to make it so, that the Heroic AMLA becomes accessible only after picking one out of the three higher ones (which should be possible WML-wise) or make it weaker.
Uthain feels pretty weird as a unit. First of all I would really make him a mandatory hero as well. Same goes for the other heroes as well I find. There's no hero unit that I wouldn't want to recall in any scenario, be it nuvdael, uthain or azyan. Your way of handling them was worth a try, but I still like the "normal" way of handling heroes better.
I guess most of the heroes are recalled at every scenario anyway, so adding Uthain and Azyan is certainly the way to go here. Uthain has that sand prefering movement type because it'd be a pain in the buttocks to move Uthain through the sands all the time (and now that he is going to get recalled all the time, that certainly is even more important). Him moving so bad on underground terrain is an oversight, thanks for pointing it out.
How am I supposed to get a genie-Kabier until there?
I hadn't been able to come up with an idea to where to place a Genie, so you'll have to stay with the normal Wahdet for now.


Looking forward to you guys finishing the campaign!

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Paulomat4 » October 18th, 2016, 9:22 pm

I'll either have to make it so, that the Heroic AMLA becomes accessible only after picking one out of the three higher ones (which should be possible WML-wise) or make it weaker.
I think 8 hitpoints is just too much. Maybe you could reduce to 5 or 6 added hitpoints only?
I hadn't been able to come up with an idea to where to place a Genie, so you'll have to stay with the normal Wahdet for now.
Okay, good to know that wasn't an oversight of me then.

another thing that I forgot to say about the miner scenario:
Since I have nuvdael in horse with his mount i already saw the dwarves from the beginning. Thus they were never "discovered" and the starting dialogues wasn't really triggered. Instead, the dialogue started later when the miners moved so fast that they left my view and I "rediscovered" them.
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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Kwandulin » October 18th, 2016, 9:25 pm

Since I have nuvdael in horse with his mount i already saw the dwarves from the beginning. Thus they were never "discovered" and the starting dialogues wasn't really triggered. Instead, the dialogue started later when the miners moved so fast that they left my view and I "rediscovered" them.
Ah, okay, yes that's another odd thing. I'll let them do their talk at the beginning and reduce their movespeed then. That should do.

Also: 5 hitpoints for the Heroic Amla seems nice, I had that number in mind, too
Last edited by Kwandulin on October 19th, 2016, 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by tr0ll » October 19th, 2016, 2:34 am

Kwandulin wrote:You're insane :lol: ! Your efforts were really useful to me and I guess this playthrough will once again prove to be very valuable, thanks!
I've edited the opening post and included your list of secrets/items/loyals. The list surely will be very useful for the ordinary mortal player!
wow nice! perhaps the whole section under Guide should be in a spoiler tag.
btw i must say the opening portrait of this topic (almost) scandalized me :oops: :lol:

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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Paulomat4 » October 19th, 2016, 4:40 pm

So, I just ended OoA :) I can just recommend it to anyone! It's awesome. :D

I bow my head before you, I just can't imagine how much time it must have taken to code all of these scenarios, create the unit sprites, portraits, choose the right music,etc...

The Ending battle was awesome! The only thing that I would have wished for would be for the 3 Kings to be a bit stronger (Same could go for Khazran btw...).
They just feel like they're too easy to beat. Also, just an idea, maybe you could make some variations between them? One having more hp, one with more damage or something like that. My Ilriel just killed all three of them in three turns... (with support of course)

A question that has been bogging me: Is Khazran the same Khazran as in Ashen hearts? If yes, how did he end up so far south?
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Re: Oath of Allegiance [SP Desert People Campaign for 1.13.5

Post by Inky » October 19th, 2016, 7:23 pm

Played a few more scenarios, up to Th'arwya:

S9 Beneath the Sands
-As Paulomat mentioned, the green crystals don't seem to do anything.
-I think it's much better to give the players control of the miners, because the AI controlled miners have several issues:
  1. 1. It is practically impossible to heal them, and they won't move to villages. Basically this means that once they get poisoned from the spores, they're dead. I have tried to predict where the miners would move and move a healer there ahead of time, but most of the time it didn't work.
    2. You often have to make suboptimal moves in order to cover the hexes next to an enemy so a miner won't move there and attack. Example from my playthrough: There is a djinn in a 1-hex bottleneck reachable by a miner, so I have to stick my own unit in the bottleneck to block the miner from taking that spot, even though it clearly would have been better to retreat and surround the djinn after it moves into the open.
    3. They didn't move straight to the goal; in my playthrough they took a detour into the dead end with a small keep in the southeast, which wasted a couple turns.
-As ahmannar said the turn limit is a bit tight - I needed an extra turn (41/40) to finish due to fighting the djinns in a bottleneck for a few turns. If you reduce the miners' movement you'd certainly need more turns to compensate.

S10 Three Kings
-It's missing carryover_add=yes, resulting in no carryover.

S11 Cloud River
-I think there should be no gold carryover, because gold is irrelevant and is all lost after S12.
-It seemed much too easy, with only a few undead appearing scattered around at one time, and then the high level enemies at the end can just be lured out one by one. The entire scenario was just easy free experience.

S12 Eye of the Hurricane
-I loved the feel of sneaking through an army, but I feel that more could be done with the scenario- right now it is trivial to stay out of range of the enemy units, destroy the catapults who don't even attack back, and sneak Dawoud to the south. The only fight was against 5 enemy units which I deliberately lured out to kill for experience. What if, as time passes, more and more enemies would wake up and start to chase your units? It would add tension and actually give you an incentive to free the minotaurs, which are currently unnecessary.
-I had an Ancient Wose autorecalled here and it wasn't very useful, to say the least.

S13 Th'arwya
-The gold carryover is 40% when it should be 100%.
-I think the income should be 0 (so you can't just endlessly get +2 gold by ending your turn), and the upkeep should be set to 0 also (that way you don't have to run around grabbing villages to support your nonloyal units).
-The wyvern merchant claims that wyverns have the knockback ability, when they don't.
-The chain armor says it increases parry bonus by 10%, but in the unit description panel it says 15%.
-When talking to Wahdet (who you sell your units to) with a hero unit, Wahdet will say he won't sell you equipment even though he doesn't sell equipment.

Other thoughts:
-Nuvdael's whirlwind AMLA has a confusing description: "grants one additional strike per turn" seems to imply his attack should change from 10x4 to 10x5; I think it should be worded the same as Dawoud's AMLA: "grants one additional attack per turn."
-I agree with a previous poster that the Alqasir/Altawir units are extremely weak and basically a waste of XP.
-I think it should be clarified that taking one of a hero's 3 AMLAs excludes the other two, because it is different to how Dawoud/Ilriel's AMLAs work.

Typos:
-Scenario 10 line 244: Usually the elves are lead by a council -> led
-Scenario 12 line 498: In case they see to many bodies laying around -> too
-Scenario 13, dialogue with Balariel: Sure, sister. Be ready -> missing . at end.

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