Dwarven fortress

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Elven
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Dwarven fortress

Post by Elven »

Hello everyone,

I made a short campaign, called Dwarven fortress. It is about a small group of elves, who are hunted by human armies, controlled by a lich. Of course, elves have to defeat their opponents, but it is not easy in an open ground. After capturing an old dwarven fortress, they are able to slowly push humans (and undead champions) back.

Only one scenario is now ready, and I will be very happy for any suggestions and feedback. Interesting (and yet not added) will be mass curses. Lich will slow and poison every elvish unit, but the elvish leader will be able to reflect it from time to time - so healing is VERY important.

To test it, simply open addons server and look for "Dwarven fortress". Made for Wesnoth 1.11/1.12
Creator of Greenie knižnica and Greenie Linux and Wesnoth unofficial LiveCD; Slovak/Czech translator and creator of The Three Elves, The Final Exam and Unite the Clans.
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Elven
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by Elven »

0.3 is out, scenario 1 is completed. So, time to play :) more scenarios will be available soon.

0.3
- mermen units are not all heroes
- cursing side 4 as well
- few bugs fixed
- modified map with a central cave and other changes
- easy/normal/hard is more different with death knight production
- Seaeriink cannot die, story reasons

0.2
- added poison and slowing
- small changes in terrain and texts

0.1
- first version
Creator of Greenie knižnica and Greenie Linux and Wesnoth unofficial LiveCD; Slovak/Czech translator and creator of The Three Elves, The Final Exam and Unite the Clans.
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taptap
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by taptap »

It is quite a fun scenario, waiting for more. The unpredictable mass curse is unfortunately more dwarf fortress kind of fun (aka "losing is fun"), completely messed up my retreat to a smaller perimeter. Imo, tone it a bit down (slow and poison are bad enough alone) and/or make it more predictable, say let the lich spill the beans about timing by saying "it is midnight so let my curse be renewed" or something like that. Hard to tell more, not knowing what you plan (I would reduce the number of loyal units, if you make a campaign out of it.)
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.
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Elven
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by Elven »

more scenarios are ready, testing it now and then i will upload.

yep, curse is very agressive - and it can be reflected, so lich will not do it anymore :) second scenario is in small islands and third one will be in original map, with a big surprise :)
taptap wrote:It is quite a fun scenario, waiting for more. The unpredictable mass curse is unfortunately more dwarf fortress kind of fun (aka "losing is fun"), completely messed up my retreat to a smaller perimeter. Imo, tone it a bit down (slow and poison are bad enough alone) and/or make it more predictable, say let the lich spill the beans about timing by saying "it is midnight so let my curse be renewed" or something like that. Hard to tell more, not knowing what you plan (I would reduce the number of loyal units, if you make a campaign out of it.)
Creator of Greenie knižnica and Greenie Linux and Wesnoth unofficial LiveCD; Slovak/Czech translator and creator of The Three Elves, The Final Exam and Unite the Clans.
UK1
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by UK1 »

Sorry to gravedig a bit, but I just started this campaign on 1.12. Seems laughably unbeatable imo. The poison and slowness curse happening to all your units with regularity is pretty unreal. And if we only needed to defend the fortress or whatever, that MIGHT be fine, but the fact that we need to sally forth and actually defeat the leaders while getting hammered with this curse every four turns just made me chuckle and hit escape, then enter. Campaigns being impossible doesn't make them good. And that seems to be a concept that a lot of campaign makers seem to struggle getting past.

If you disagree and think that this scenario is beatable, by all means please upload a record of you beating it. I'd be really interested in seeing what you saw that I missed. For instance, maybe just defending the cave for the first bit and killing their initial recruit would be a better idea than venturing out once you recruit, but then the enemy would have like a bajillion villages and it'd be a huge uphill struggle. Wasn't really willing to devote the time to find out due to my strong suspicion that this is yet another campaign that was made unbeatable (or at least unpleasant) vis a vis an inexplicable correlation in the author's mind between the impossibility of success and quality. Could be that I'm missing something huge or that I'm just unwilling to force-luck by saving and reloading, but I don't really see how this is possible at all. Though based on the way the other poster spoke, seems he got past the first scenario. So I'd be interested in hearing about that.

And for what it's worth, even if the scenario is beatable, having my units poisoned and slowed every four turns takes a lot of fun out of it. Made the eight turns that I played and did marginally well still be pretty not fun. It's like playing Chess against a five year old who just takes your pieces off of the board when they inconvenience him. Sure, it's harder. But it's arbitrary, doesn't add anything to the game, and arguably makes it less Chess-like by incorporating a mechanic that just frustrates the player. And makes it not fun. Just food for thought. Because I've definitely played campaigns where I thought it was impossible, tried different angles, and found something that worked. And that MIGHT be the case with this campaign, but I don't WANT to find something that works, because it's not fun even if it's possible to beat.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
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Do not. Nerf. The bat.
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Inky
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by Inky »

Here is my 1.12 replay on hard, no saveloading. Finished turn 45. There is no turn limit so no need to rush. Try to hold the northwest villages - you need the income. Try to level a druid ASAP, and sorceresses because they are the only units who can kill death knights. Keep the mermen alive and level them - they can easily take out the lich during the day. Use inexperienced level 1 units as sacrifices - their death will increase your income so you can recruit more. The poison / slow thing is annoying but stops after turn 12.

Good luck!
UK1 wrote:Campaigns being impossible doesn't make them good. And that seems to be a concept that a lot of campaign makers seem to struggle getting past.
You personally being unable to beat a scenario does not always mean the scenario is unbalanced / impossible. This seems to be a concept many players struggle getting past. Try to figure out what you could have done differently, or try playing on a lower difficulty level, or ask for advice (nicely) on the forums before insulting the campaign author.

----
edit: to Elven, if he is still updating the campaign: The scenario objectives say to defeat the lich, when they should say defeat all enemy leaders.
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UK1
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by UK1 »

Inky wrote:Here is my 1.12 replay on hard, no saveloading. Finished turn 45. There is no turn limit so no need to rush. Try to hold the northwest villages - you need the income. Try to level a druid ASAP, and sorceresses because they are the only units who can kill death knights. Keep the mermen alive and level them - they can easily take out the lich during the day. Use inexperienced level 1 units as sacrifices - their death will increase your income so you can recruit more. The poison / slow thing is annoying but stops after turn 12.

Good luck!
UK1 wrote:Campaigns being impossible doesn't make them good. And that seems to be a concept that a lot of campaign makers seem to struggle getting past.
You personally being unable to beat a scenario does not always mean the scenario is unbalanced / impossible. This seems to be a concept many players struggle getting past. Try to figure out what you could have done differently, or try playing on a lower difficulty level, or ask for advice (nicely) on the forums before insulting the campaign author.

----
edit: to Elven, if he is still updating the campaign: The scenario objectives say to defeat the lich, when they should say defeat all enemy leaders.
No, I acknowledged the possibility and, indeed, probability that there was a way to beat it. I just wasn't interested in trying because it wasn't enjoyable. I think I mention that at the end of my post, in case you kind of tl;dr'd it. And I don't think I insulted anyone. I'm sure there are people out there who enjoy this scenario (obviously, there are) but I didn't and I explained why without using expletives or anything like that. Not enjoying a campaign isn't an insult. Sorry. Here are the relevant parts of my post where I acknowledge the aforementioned possibility and even express a vague interest in seeing how it's done:

"If you disagree and think that this scenario is beatable, by all means please upload a record of you beating it. I'd be really interested in seeing what you saw that I missed. For instance, maybe just defending the cave for the first bit and killing their initial recruit would be a better idea than venturing out once you recruit,"

"Could be that I'm missing something huge or that I'm just unwilling to force-luck by saving and reloading, but I don't really see how this is possible at all. Though based on the way the other poster spoke, seems he got past the first scenario. So I'd be interested in hearing about that."

"I've definitely played campaigns where I thought it was impossible, tried different angles, and found something that worked. And that MIGHT be the case with this campaign, but I don't WANT to find something that works, because it's not fun even if it's possible to beat."

I can think off the top of my head of one campaign that I played a couple years ago, said "Lol, this is impossible." stepped away from it for a day, came back and beat it handily. I've said to myself that a lot of campaigns are impossible and I've proven myself wrong every time. In all likelihood I'd have done that with this campaign. My point was that, for me, the poison and slow thing just made it not fun at all because it just added a bizarre, arbitrary, and crushing mechanic that really has nothing to do with why I like Wesnoth (my playing chess with a five year old analogy was an apt description of how I feel). And since campaigns are, allegedly, about fun I thought that was worthwhile feedback. Feedback does not equate to complimenting the author and patting them on the back. That's just compliments. When you get feedback you acknowledge that some of it will be negative, as this was.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
"Because I lost a game to bat swarm and I'm bitterUhm... clarity... and... consistency? Yeah yeah that sounds good. Clarity and consistency."
Do not. Nerf. The bat.
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Inky
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by Inky »

Hi UK1,
You're right - I didn't phrase the last part of my post very well. You didn't insult anyone, I just felt like you could have written your criticism in a more positive way even if you didn't like the scenario. What I meant to say is that I don't think playing the first 8 turns of a scenario one time is sufficient to judge whether the scenario is possible, or to make the claim that the author has deliberately made it unbeatable.

I agree about giving negative feedback, but I think it's better to give the scenario a real chance before doing so. In this case playing for just a little longer would have revealed that the curse mechanic was only temporary.
UK1
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Re: Dwarven fortress

Post by UK1 »

Inky wrote:Hi UK1,
You're right - I didn't phrase the last part of my post very well. You didn't insult anyone, I just felt like you could have written your criticism in a more positive way even if you didn't like the scenario. What I meant to say is that I don't think playing the first 8 turns of a scenario one time is sufficient to judge whether the scenario is possible, or to make the claim that the author has deliberately made it unbeatable.

I agree about giving negative feedback, but I think it's better to give the scenario a real chance before doing so. In this case playing for just a little longer would have revealed that the curse mechanic was only temporary.
It's enough time to know that the mechanic made it not enjoyable. Which was the crux of the feedback. I only need to be punched in the face once to know it won't be fun.

"I've said to myself that a lot of campaigns are impossible and I've proven myself wrong every time. In all likelihood I'd have done that with this campaign. My point was that, for me, the poison and slow thing just made it not fun at all because it just added a bizarre, arbitrary, and crushing mechanic that really has nothing to do with why I like Wesnoth (my playing chess with a five year old analogy was an apt description of how I feel)."

To reiterate, I do not dispute that the scenario is beatable. My main assertion was that it just plain wasn't fun for me and the mechanic I spoke of, while it made the scenario harder certainly, also made the scenario inherently less Wesnoth-y and less enjoyable. New mechanics aren't necessarily bad, regardless of their impact on difficulty, but they aren't necessarily good either. I can think of plenty of examples aside from the chess one where adding a random mechanic to make it more difficult could also result in the experience being less enjoyable. That was the point I was here to make. I think it got missed completely. I'll bow out now.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
"Because I lost a game to bat swarm and I'm bitterUhm... clarity... and... consistency? Yeah yeah that sounds good. Clarity and consistency."
Do not. Nerf. The bat.
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