Antar, Son of Rheor [Development Thread]

[Adamant14]

Revenge: If the leader dies in a fire, it's not a scenario loss.

Will be fixed with the next update.
Thanks for the report.

[Crow_T]

There is a grammar error in the intro scenario-

Spoiler:

"you are old enough for your first your fist command" I get a kick out of the main character portrait btw

[AxalaraFlame]

"You are old enough for your first command".

[marecki]

Four scenarios in and I'm loving the campaign so far. Playing the first scenario (on normal) was probably the most fun I've had in Wesnoth since I discovered Cities on the Frontier. The second one was extremely easy by comparison, but I guess that's good for the pacing, after the crazy beginning. The fourth one, running through the hills, is also very well designed, although some people may not like how the game arbitrarily selects starting units (I milked a lot of experience in previous missions, so I didn't really care). Can't wait to play the rest after work (it's playable to the end, right?).
As for hunting bugs, enemy leader in mission two does not give experience (I guess that could be intentional, but I doubt it).

[TheScribe]

although some people may not like how the game arbitrarily selects starting units

IIRC, the game recalls all the units that you recruited/recalled in the previous scenario.

it's playable to the end, right?

Sadly, no. It's about halfway finished.

[marecki]

IIRC, the game recalls all the units that you recruited/recalled in the previous scenario.

Oh, that's right, I read up on this thread a bit. I'm not sure I like that. I mean, those lvl1 dwarves are basically forced on the player, increasing the number of spawned goblins and, let's face it, are kind of a hassle to drag through the level. Plus I would definitely use a different unit composition than in the previous scenario. Why not use the "temporary keep" option, like in several other campaigns (I think UtBS and IftU used that)? Giving players more freedom is almost always good.

[Adamant14]

@marecki:
Thank you for the nice words.

About the experience in scenario 02:
I'm pretty sure you gain the experience, but sadly not until the very end of the scenario.
Sadly you have to wait till Antar meet Lord Veogwyn in his castle, and talked with him.
After this the experience will be added.
If not, then it is a bug.

it's playable to the end, right?

Sadly, no. It's about halfway finished.

Part 1 (scenario 1-8) is complete balanced and playable.
Part 2 is written (many thanks to TheScribe for the story) and will be coded in the next few month.

IIRC, the game recalls all the units that you recruited/recalled in the previous scenario.

Oh, that's right, I read up on this thread a bit. I'm not sure I like that. I mean, those lvl1 dwarves are basically forced on the player, increasing the number of spawned goblins and, let's face it, are kind of a hassle to drag through the level. Plus I would definitely use a different unit composition than in the previous scenario. Why not use the "temporary keep" option, like in several other campaigns (I think UtBS and IftU used that)? Giving players more freedom is almost always good.

But I don't want to give the player this freedom.
It is a bit harder for the player this way, and that is exactly what I want.

[marecki]

It is a bit harder for the player this way, and that is exactly what I want.

Heh, alright, that I can understand. I finished it on first try anyway, losing just one dwarf, more to my lack of attention than overwhelming odds, so yeah, maybe being able to select the best squad would make it too easy (normal diff feels just right as it is).
Thank you both for clarifying the current status of the campaign.

[marecki]

Scenario 8: The Dwarves
One of the dwarves says that the undead forces are superior, but I took them on anyway and defeated both death knights pretty easily, all the time moving Antar through the mines to the throne room. Thought that was a smart thing to do. Then objectives change and suddenly I'm screwed, because I can't get my units into the mines in time to fight purple. Why am I being penalised for success? It's just not cool. And don't say, "well, you're not supposed to engage those undead." How is the player to know that? Why stage the battle outside, if the player is not even supposed to see it, let alone participate? Suggestion: if DKs outside are defeated, have some additional passages open up in the mountains (dunno if that can be coded though).

That was the only mission I found annoying. Otherwise I enjoyed the campaign very much and will definitely pick up the second part when it comes out.

[TheScribe]

I defeated the undead armies too, and easily accomplished the scenario objectives. (I moved my entire army along with Antar, and recruited off of my opponent's keeps once I killed them)

It's been a while since I played it, so I can't offer any other help. Adamant14 could probably help more though.

[marecki]

I defeated the undead armies too, and easily accomplished the scenario objectives. (I moved my entire army along with Antar, and recruited off of my opponent's keeps once I killed them)

I don't get it, you either engage the undead outside, or move units with Antar. Oh well, doesn't matter, evidently I just suck. Still, I'd like to see a replay on how it's done, maybe it depends on what purple does once it appears. In my game, the eastern entrance to the mines was completely clogged, there was simply no way to get my army inside on time from their position (the northern entrance was clogged too, but with dwarves...). Interestingly, I could probably finish purple only with recruited heavies, since I had a lot of gold, but dwarf leaders refused to die, or leave their keeps.

[TheScribe]

I'll see if I can dig up a replay for you.

EDIT: found it.

[marecki]

Thanks, much appreciated!
So you pushed east quickly and didn't send Antar through the "hidden entrance" (even though it's hinted in the dialogue to do just that, so that's what I did, playing for the first time). In my game, the tunnel right behind the eastern leader was chock-full of undead and I couldn't get in (and couldn't even start attacking them because two steelclads were blocking the one-hex entrance!). For the record, I had high-level loyals and more gold at the start.
I just don't like this map design and one-hex entrances in general, especially with turn limits set so tight. For that matter, why am I given only 15 turns to clear the mines? Seems arbitrary, considering that in scenario 6 (with the yeti) the turn limit is set to 36 on normal and yet it can be finished in a fraction of that time.
I hope I'm not too whiny about this, I just feel I should give honest feedback, because overall the campaign is pretty awesome.

[Adamant14]

So you pushed east quickly and didn't send Antar through the "hidden entrance" (even though it's hinted in the dialogue to do just that, so that's what I did, playing for the first time).

About the hint:
Note, not everybody gets this hint!
At the beginning of this scenario I decided to count Antars men on the map.
(the surviving units from the last scenario)
And if they are less than a certain number, then you get those hint, otherwise there is no hint!
The secret entrance is just useful when your forces are too weak to conquer the keep of the first Death Knight.
Otherwise the ideal strategy is to kill the first Death Knight, and recruit/recall in his keep.
Then you can attack the undead, and move Antar to meet Gomdring.
=> if your forces are strong enough => no hint => no secret entrance!

In my game, the tunnel right behind the eastern leader was chock-full of undead and I couldn't get in (and couldn't even start attacking them because two steelclads were blocking the one-hex entrance!).

Even Steelclads can resist all those undeads for just a few turns.
After they are fallen, you can conquer the mines with Level3 units.
I play-tested this scenario over and over - and it is beatable.
The scenario becomes really hard when the undead handle to free the prisoner, so it is very important to move Antar as fast as you can to meet Gomdring

For the record, I had high-level loyals and more gold at the start.

There are a lot of castles inside the mines.
So why didn't you recruit/recall inside the mines to build a second front?
To fight the undead from inside the mines?

I just don't like this map design and one-hex entrances in general, especially with turn limits set so tight. For that matter, why am I given only 15 turns to clear the mines? Seems arbitrary, considering that in scenario 6 (with the yeti) the turn limit is set to 36 on normal and yet it can be finished in a fraction of that time.

As soon as Antar meets Gomdring, no new undead will be created.
And in all my play-tests 15 turns were sufficiently.
But when I play this scenario, I knew about every little thing that is and will happen on the map.
So it would be a great help for me if you can post a replay for me.
I will also check the replay posted by TheScribe.

I hope I'm not too whiny about this, I just feel I should give honest feedback, because overall the campaign is pretty awesome.

Definitely not. I really appreciate your feedback.

Otherwise I enjoyed the campaign very much and will definitely pick up the second part when it comes out.

Thank you.

Conclusions:
Maybe I should reduce the certain number of units that triggers the hint.
Maybe I should change the text of the hint somehow, to make it more clearer for the player ( any suggestions?)
Maybe I should raise the turn limit to give Antar more time to clear the mines.

@TheScribe:
Thank you for the replay.
To watch it was very fascinating for me.
To see how someone else (you) plays this (for me) well known scenario.
You played a complete different tactic then me, and much more aggressive.
And you showed me also that I have reduce the number that triggers the hint. (you ignored the hint)
The undead are beatable with much less units than I thought.


I hope I can get more replays.

[marecki]

So why didn't you recruit/recall inside the mines to build a second front?

Probably because I'm a moron and didn't notice the multiple free keeps in the throne room...anyway, turns out recruitment wasn't even necessary - heavies barely did any fighting. Heh, this scenario becomes much easier once you know what to expect.

So it would be a great help for me if you can post a replay for me.

After I watched TheScribe's replay, I gave it another go, so the first replay kinda got overwritten. I attached the new one, but it's a win, so not much use I guess. One thing to note near the end (if you watch the replay) is that all those deathblades beeline for the necromancer's cell and when they free him they crowd into the cell, which then can be blocked by a queue of dwarves. This could lead to hitting the turn limit and a rather a frustrating loss.