Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

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seldon71
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by seldon71 »

Btw, only when I tried to check your replay, I noticed that I've been playing on 1.12 version. Have to check how to update...

So no - replay didn't work.
seldon71
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by seldon71 »

To the Grnk-2. I absolutely LOVED the battle of tamed animals against trolls. Unbelievable how useful those pesky little rabbits became in that one. Not only one of them gnawed a whelp to the death :D :D :D :D , but they were excellent blockers in enabling to move around trolls to attack the leader.

I ended up finishing him off with a concerted effort from 2 wolves + 2 sheepdogs while giant scorpion shielded the other trolls from coming to the help. Grnk had ran away with minimal HPs left 2 turns earlier.

P.S. My starting army had a bear (excellent against whelps), 3 wolves, all sheep dogs, a scorpion, a tarantula (had tamed them both, but lost one in "Beasts"), 4 rabbits, 3 sheep and 2 deer. Stayed away from tuskers/tusklets...
mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by mattsc »

I'm glad that you figured it out, but that seems more difficult than what I do. I also don't need to rely on lucky (non)hits in order to keep Rutburt save. There are many reasons to upgrade to 1.14, but if you don't want to (or cannot for some reason), I found a (4-year old) replay from 1.12 that should work and have attached it below. There might have been some changes from that replay to the current version, but those should be mostly cosmetic, the gameplay has not changed.

A couple specific comments:
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
2) keeping Gertbert safely concealed close to the 3 enemy camps for a while.
I don't do that. I run him over as quickly as possible and run the two (and all of Rutburt's units) back as quickly as possible also.
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
3) then finally having Gertbert to attack Karcyn at the point when there is only Karcyn, Koorzhar & skeleton guards anywhere close-by. That makes Karcyn disappear with his guards and Gertbert only needs to survive the running battle with Koorzhar (until he manages to outrun the slower officer over the river).
Huh, that's quite ingenious, but doing this so late might cause some of the other trouble you run into. I might have to check that out myself sometime.
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
-I hoped that when Gertbert finally blows his cover he will also lure some of the pursuers of his brother to turn back North. Nope, didn't happen...
Yeah, that's not what the Wesnoth AI does, and I did not override it.
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
a) Is the amount of the skeletons which appear on the heels of Grnk, Wyssauba, ox-cart & the gang directly related to the amount of skeletons alive at the end of "Prunes"? In other words - does the effectiveness of orcish defense there have a consequence for "Wizards"???
Yes, both the number and the timing is directly taken from the situation at the end of "Prunes". (The same happens at the beginning of "Prunes", BTW.) But I don't think it is too critical how you end "Prunes".
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
b) I didn't see a point of trying to lure ALL the concealed skeleton guards away from the water on early turns. It is completely ok to have 1-2 of them still submerged when Grnk arrives. They have firepower to remove them easily out of the way. Yes - gryphons should get few of them out of the way - but it is IMO more important to save the ultra-mobile gryphons for the main battle than risking/sacrificing them for "emptying the river". Opinion?
My opinion is that you should do it in whichever way works for you, but I agree that it is not necessary to lure them all out. I think I sometimes do it one way and sometimes the other. BTW, you don't have to kill them with the gryphons, you just need to lure them out. If you move the gryphons out of the way after that, the guards will head for the mages army.
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
c) as said - I'm still very much novice here (started to play Wesnoth about 3 weeks ago) and I played it on "easy". On harder settings - would Rutbert have more gold for recruiting? 'Cause IF he still has had gold on the turn before Gertbert gets to slap him... Then there should be three guys on Rutbert's camp and they could immediately be deployed as "an assassination squad" against Koorzhar???
Actually, no, Rutburt gets the same gold on all difficulty levels, while Korrzhar and Karcyn have more on the higher difficulties. That's done exactly to avoid what you are talking about. But I can't rule out that there is something else in the scenario that inadvertently makes it harder on easy, so let me know if there's anything in my replay that might not be possible on easy (except for the very beginning when I created the campaign, I usually only playtest on medium and hard any more these days). Or you could send me your replay and I'll have a look.

I'm glad that you liked the "Cart" scenario! :D Thank you for all the feedback and I'm impressed that you can do all this after only 3 weeks playing Wesnoth!
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Replay for 1.12.
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seldon71
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by seldon71 »

mattsc wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 2:08 pm
There are many reasons to upgrade to 1.14, but if you don't want to (or cannot for some reason).
I haven't yet found the newer versions for Ubuntu. Repository only has 1.12

A couple specific comments:
mattsc wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 2:08 pm
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
2) keeping Gertbert safely concealed close to the 3 enemy camps for a while.
I don't do that. I run him over as quickly as possible and run the two (and all of Rutburt's units) back as quickly as possible also.
Originally I planned the attack on Karcyn for the reason I mentioned - as a method to further confuse AI troops. But as that didn't work that way (I thought Gertbert was also a side leader, but no) I would only attack Karcyn at the point when Wissauba can no longer avoid fighting in next round. When you anticipate that, You get Gertbert to one-on-one versus Koorzhar & he can handle that (most of the time anyway).
mattsc wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 2:08 pm
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
a) Is the amount of the skeletons which appear on the heels of Grnk, Wyssauba, ox-cart & the gang directly related to the amount of skeletons alive at the end of "Prunes"? In other words - does the effectiveness of orcish defense there have a consequence for "Wizards"???
Yes, both the number and the timing is directly taken from the situation at the end of "Prunes". (The same happens at the beginning of "Prunes", BTW.) But I don't think it is too critical how you end "Prunes".
Not critical, but surely would be beneficial to target the axemen in "Prunes". They are much more dangerous for mages than the archers are. Besides - I badly mismanaged my orcs in "Prunes" anyway. I was only concerned about the time won for the oxcart. Could have played that MUCH, MUCH better.

mattsc wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 2:08 pm
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:07 am
b) I didn't see a point of trying to lure ALL the concealed skeleton guards away from the water on early turns. It is completely ok to have 1-2 of them still submerged when Grnk arrives. They have firepower to remove them easily out of the way. Yes - gryphons should get few of them out of the way - but it is IMO more important to save the ultra-mobile gryphons for the main battle than risking/sacrificing them for "emptying the river". Opinion?
My opinion is that you should do it in whichever way works for you, but I agree that it is not necessary to lure them all out. I think I sometimes do it one way and sometimes the other. BTW, you don't have to kill them with the gryphons, you just need to lure them out. If you move the gryphons out of the way after that, the guards will head for the mages army.
Yes - noticed that. Still - with my meagre mages having their hands full anyway I saw it beneficial to kill at least the better submerged archer (was it banebow or bone shooter?). Could do it reasonably safely by rotating gryphons. The one which lures guard out goes immediately to a cottage on other riverside while the other 2 rip the guard to pieces. I think that on average Gryphons killed 2-3 of the submerged guard, one ran away to join main charge and one stayed in river. After learning the necessary caution I was able to achieve that without losing any gryphon at that stage.
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Pentarctagon
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by Pentarctagon »

seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 4:02 pm
mattsc wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 2:08 pm
There are many reasons to upgrade to 1.14, but if you don't want to (or cannot for some reason).
I haven't yet found the newer versions for Ubuntu. Repository only has 1.12
There's the Steam version(1.14.7), this ppa(1.14.5), and the flatpak(1.14.7).
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code
seldon71
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by seldon71 »

Thanks for the 1.12 replay. Too bad that I carelessly replaced my own replay with that one and can't send one back to you :( :( :(

But yes - they look completely different!

1) I never really advance with the mages but instead stay hold up on those watchtowers & mountains around them. There is an occasional "suicide" dash to kill lvl2 skeletons and especially ones on verge of uplevelling. But basically I hold the fort, don't venture forward.

2) On easy, Grnk&friends arrive on Round12 (Round10 in your reply). At that point the initial skeleton army has been completely wiped out and there is an empty field between our heroes & the mage school.

3) OTOH, while Grnk arrives later - I think the pursuing skeletons as well as the Eastside enemies arrive at the same turn (13) on both easy&medium. There is just less time to move Grnk&fellas between these events when you play on easy. They arrive later and get enemies on their back immediately.

4) Because of mages being up North at the castle (instead of plains below), the "new armies" (Koorzhar, Rutburt, Karcyn) have to go through peasants to reach the target. That results in a massive, immediate carnage of whole peasant revolt. They play clearly lesser and less effective role in my scenario. Managed three kills though (orcish grunt, assassin and one of Koorzhar's spearmen).

5) I did not turn Gertburt towards his brother BEFORE that discussion actually happens. Thus I start that journey about 1½ turns worth of hexes further back (and wrong side of the river). I also think I forgot to move Gertburt on one round. For those reasons he reaches Rutburt much much later. Even the last batch of outlaw-recruits were already two movement rounds upto the field. Yeah, I see how you could protect the Burt-bros on their escape. I didn't have any support troops available close by at the time of Rutburt-conversion.

6) Have you removed that Shadow from the update-versions? Otherwise I have not committed some move which would trigger his appearance.
mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by mattsc »

seldon71 -- Thanks for the additional comments.
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm
Too bad that I carelessly replaced my own replay with that one and can't send one back to you :( :( :(
Do you keep auto-saves? If so, you could re-load the last turn's save and play from there. Or even just save a replay at that point as, I presume, the very last turn does not really matter. But it probably does not matter all that much anyway, as you now have seen how I do it.

I'm not going to comment on every of your points, just a couple of them:
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm
3) OTOH, while Grnk arrives later - I think the pursuing skeletons as well as the Eastside enemies arrive at the same turn (13) on both easy&medium. There is just less time to move Grnk&fellas between these events when you play on easy. They arrive later and get enemies on their back immediately.
When the skeletons arrive depends on what you did in the previous scenario. The farther you were ahead of them, the more of a gap you get until they arrive. The comments in the code here (sort of) explain how it is done. If you just barely out-ran the skeletons in "Prunes", they'll be right on your heels. If you had a bit of a gap, you'll get a bit of a breather here.
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm
5) I did not turn Gertburt towards his brother BEFORE that discussion actually happens.
Hmm, I'll look into that. If previous knowledge helps with this, that's ... undesirable and I should change it. Thanks for pointing that out.
seldon71 wrote:
April 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm
6) Have you removed that Shadow from the update-versions? Otherwise I have not committed some move which would trigger his appearance.
No, that has not changed. The shadows arriving are those from scenario 4. If any of them survive there, they'll show up here. They are not essential to making it through "Wizards" though (I've even completely forgotten to use them and just left them up there in the corner), so I don't think it's necessary to point that out. It's just an easter-egg kind of thing if you get them.

Hope that makes sense and is not too frustrating, and again, I am impressed that you made it through on only 3 weeks of "practice". Grnk is meant to be somewhat difficult. Well done!
seldon71
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by seldon71 »

I re-played "Wizards"-scenario on my style. Defending deep, delaying both the "slap" and Gertburt's eventual appearance for enemies' eyes (which requires keeping also Wyssauba protected all the time and not using his battle talents).

I purposefully waited with "the brotherly cheek-love" until Rutburt's gang was VERY close to the action against mages (but not so long that they would have attacked their future allies). That way I reverse-earned an Eastern flank for my defense.

That also means Rutburt needs to survive his run with little (some, but little) help. It was hairy again, but he did it (and without even needing a single re-load). I did lose Vanak once with a hugely unlucky roll of dice in his duel with almost deadly-wounded Orcish Warlord. There I needed a re-take.

I think you find this interesting, matt! Very different way of getting through than your tactics!

P.S. Would make sense if the mage-healers would also help the Rutbert's boys after they change sides... After all - mage healing powers work for an orc (Vanak) and gryphons. Not for fellow humans though... I guess that is something in the code (only heal your own colours, not allies) but would be more "realistic" if helping/healing hand was extended. Would that be even POSSIBLE as game code is written?
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by mattsc »

seldon71 wrote:
April 22nd, 2019, 6:35 pm
I think you find this interesting, matt! Very different way of getting through than your tactics!
Indeed, I do! That's a nice way of playing this scenario, I can only repeat what I've said: well done and thanks a lot for all the feedback!
seldon71 wrote:
April 22nd, 2019, 6:35 pm
P.S. Would make sense if the mage-healers would also help the Rutbert's boys after they change sides
Unless I misundestood you, they do (it's default behavior in Wesnoth that healers also heal allied units). It happens at the beginning of the turn of the healer though. Check out, for example, the ranger at 33,11 at the beginning of turn 24 of your own replay.

Thanks again, I hope you'll enjoy the rest of Grnk.
seldon71
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by seldon71 »

Here is the "forward-with-footpads-only" strategy for "Treasure". Played on Intermediate level and it is still like stealing candy from a kid. On Hard this may not work as the Faulorn's raid party may arrive too early or I think it would work but only if you have managed to level up Grnk in Shmaltupp. You probably don't have time for even that one kill here. At least I think so...
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by mattsc »

seldon71 wrote:
April 24th, 2019, 10:06 pm
Played on Intermediate level and it is still like stealing candy from a kid.
Hmm, yeah, that is quite a bit easier than I intended that scenario to be. I will have to think about what can be done about that. I'd prefer to make this way of playing it harder rather than making it impossible altogether, as I like it when there are different ways of getting through a scenario. Not sure yet how to do that, but I'll come up with something.

Thanks.
seldon71
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Re: Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Post by seldon71 »

Some options of making this more difficult (while not taking out) the possibility of playing "speed raid)...

- move the Woodsmen' camp closer to that open field just West of Mountain Pass.
- plus make the Woodsmen more passive (only acting when someone enters their attacking range).

This would simultaneously:
a) make the "get-the-kill" excursion with Grnk comes more time-consuming (and time is golden here)
b) takes it longer to engage Woodsmen with the remaining gang. Thus less likely that player has got rid of them by the time he is running away with Faulorn's gold

Or maximum solution :
- make two Woodsmen camps.
- 1st as it is now to harass the travel towards Versholn Valley.
- 2nd further North (and only to activate on trigger) to harass the way back from the raid.
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