Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

[taptap]

Wizards is definitely the hardest scenario of the campaign. Uh oh. If all goes well on one side, then inevitable sth. goes wrong elsewhere. Tricky, but a nice challenge as a final. Definitely a change to big battle w/ balanced army campaign finals. Not solved yet, probably needs more precision (in the last try the outlaws killed a critical unit one turn before I could align them).

[mattsc]

Yeah, this one is supposed to be hard. When you get it done, let me know if you think it is "hard, but about right" or "a bit over the top" (or whatever). As I said before, I did most of the balancing on 'medium', 'hard' might not be balanced as well, so any feedback is very useful. Thanks.

[taptap]

Yeah, this one is supposed to be hard. When you get it done, let me know if you think it is "hard, but about right" or "a bit over the top" (or whatever). As I said before, I did most of the balancing on 'medium', 'hard' might not be balanced as well, so any feedback is very useful. Thanks.

Ok, some feedback.

I managed to do it... Unfortunately the replay is corrupted. The main difficulty is ballet - that is to induce the AI to go where you want it to go. Position the gryphons nicely to lure out the submerged guards, but at the same time you have to withdraw them rapidly or otherwise the skeletons going towards them for one turn too long won't meet your mages at daytime, but at night. You need the gryphons to choreograph bandit / loyalist approach too (if they mix you are in trouble), and Gertburt has to run full speed as soon as he arrives (even if not fully healed, knowing what comes is a big help) - otherwise you will have the outlaws going for peasants and mixing with all the other units or similarly bad going for you and killing a crucial unit before you can align the outlaws as happened to me last time. As soon as I aligned the outlaws I fled straight to southwest - taking out ten or so (incl. 1-2 L2) skeletons on the run (they are no match, but happily so, otherwise the stream of orcs and loyalists would overwhelm you). While Rutburt &Co. had a good time in the night from turn 16-19, this night was pretty hard for the mages as they were hit by the skeleton reinforcements and without mobility to retreat at night - (the night before was easier). I used the ghosts and the 2 remaining gryphons to help the mages. In this theatre I lost 9 mages, 1 white mage, 1 wraith, and a reinforcing fugitive in total Grossauba finished with 15 losses 109 kills (yes, there are many skeletons), less losses and less kills by the outlaws. When I tried before I took a silver mage to reinforce Grnk, but this messes up the choreography, knowing about the alignment possibility this time, I went for all White mages + MoL for the 3 experienced units, you really need the healing. I even made the first advance another White mage, though one White mage got lost later. Grossauba saw an AMLA in the scenario, he was especially useful in defensively taking out skeleton archers who somehow couldn't resist attacking him

The peasants were surprisingly effective.

I have the feeling that the difficulty here doesn't scale so much by amount of gold / units, but by information, knowledge (how to manipulate the AI) and ToD. On hard, the peasants see battle in daytime, on easy with 3 turns different they might end fighting in the night for a totally different outcome.

Thank you for the campaign.

Bugs:

Both Koorzhar and Rutburt grumble, when it is supposed only to be the stonehand.
When Wyssauba walks off the map in the epilogue his aura doubles and one copy stays were it is.

[mattsc]

Interesting analysis. There are a lot of similarities to how I play it, but also some differences. Also, some of the choreography you describe I am not aware of, or maybe I do it automatically without thinking about it. For example, I don't synchronize the gryphon attacks with anything, just use them to draw the skeletons out of the water one by one, and later to help with odds and ends wherever needed. I try to make for the water's edge as quickly as possible, but only if I can get there during the day - you don't want to be caught in the plains at night. Retreat to the mountains if needed. Anyways, sounds like our strategies are pretty similar, but not quite the same.

My replays always get corrupted too. At some point I'll have to sit down and see what causes all these ooS errors as I find that really frustrating. I'm sure I'm doing something that I am not supposed to do in the code, I just don't know what it is...

Grossauba saw an AMLA in the scenario, he was especially useful in defensively taking out skeleton archers who somehow couldn't resist attacking him

Yeah, he and MoL's are great for that.

On hard, the peasants see battle in daytime, on easy with 3 turns different they might end fighting in the night for a totally different outcome.

That's an interesting point and something I hadn't thought of. I wonder if I should do something about that...

Bugs:

Both Koorzhar and Rutburt grumble, when it is supposed only to be the stonehand.

That's not a bug. It's supposed to show that they both aren't happy with what's going on, but are somehow under the influence of the dark sorcerer. (Btw, the stonehand could also be a third unit, not one of those two, depending on how you played it earlier. That's how I usually play it and maybe the dialog is tuned for that. I'll check it out.)

When Wyssauba walks off the map in the epilogue his aura doubles and one copy stays were it is.

Hmm, haven't noticed that one. Thanks.

Thank you for the campaign.

Thanks for playing it!

[taptap]

Not necessarily gryphon attacks, but positioning them to lure enemy units in the right direction. If they stay one move longer in the south the undead go for them, hitting the mages in the wrong ToD, if they stay even longer you lose instantly (I fear, didn't try) because you are overwhelmed early on, when Grnk &Co. arrives, if Gryphons are not in the middle when the outlaws / loyalists / orcs arrive, those groups tend (well I didn't research it thoroughly) to mix when going for the peasants or worst case when some gryphons are in the east the outlaws may go south, slowing your alignment of them or making it impossible. This is not well researched, but I definitely had more than one try - and it can really effect the whole skeleton army changing direction. A similar effect made the first night after Grnks arrival pretty easy (I mainly finished the skeletons at my line, but the reinforcements were marching southward for a turn, arriving two turns later.) 2nd night after Grnks arrival was hardest. (Here again turn limits might influence difficulty differently than thought. Grnks arrival 3 turns later may lead skeletons to move south during a day and hit mages in night.)

Btw. my gryphons just rekilled the banebow, the counterattack somewhat luckily killed an (about?) full-health gryphon, so they weren't much of a independent fighting force of their own at that point. But very important by their presence, later I used them mainly in crucial turns as good def. tanks on flat hexes at the northern front (to limit access to crucial units).

[mattsc]

Yeah, (I think) I understood that that's how you were using the gryphons. I don't play them that way (well, not all of it, I mean). I really only use them to lure the guards out of the water, one by one (one reason why you are given the spiel at the beginning of the scenario is so that you know where they are), while staying entirely out of the reach of the main undead army which goes straight for Grossauba. If you place them right so that the guards have to stay in the water, you can also kill 2 or 3 of them with the gryphons. The other 2 or 3 are no problem for Grnk and company to take care of when they arrive. And yes, you can deflect the entire undead army with the gryphons, and maybe it's even better than my method, it's just not how I do it.

Then I move the gryphons over to Grossauba's troops, them helping with picking off individual undead when a long-range unit is of advantage, or because they can take hits well in the plains, as you say. I do not use them at all to help with the outlaws. And, btw, the outlaw AI is instructed to target Grossauba's units with much higher value than the peasants. So as long as the peasants are not in attack range, the outlaws should head straight west (for the most part, some mixing will of course occur and is intentional).

As I said, my replay is broken too, but I can send you some snapshots, if you'd like. I think we are playing it pretty similarly, but with some definite differences.

[rmj]

Played scenario 1.

The dialog gives the impression that it would be useful to stop and fight the orcs, using the quicksand to deplete there ranks, but after two die they avoid it, and meanwhile your units have been placed poorly for escaping. Make it clearer that one should move quickly.

Normally one is concerned with keeping one's fellow units alive, but in this campaign those that do survive don't show up later (at least at scenario 2). If one knew this at the beginning one could use the units more effectively. Perhaps an aside by Grnk saying that when he gets to
Schmaltupp he won't need them any longer.

Spoiler:

When you know that there is no need to preserve the other units, one can win
quickly: move Grnk to the very end of the bridge with the pillager right behind,
leaving the other goblins to defend. Next turn move Grnk to the next river,
have the pillager blow the bridge and follow Grnk. Grnk can now get to the
gryphons untouched without using the tunnel.

[mattsc]

Thanks for the comments, rmj. Both statements you are asking for are, in my mind/interpretation, in the dialog, but there are certainly other interpretations possible also. I actually had the "no one else needs to survive" in the objectives originally and then removed it because I thought it was "clumsy". In general, I tried to set things up so that, whenever possible, you get the information needed from the dialog. It is full of hints about what is to come (in all scenarios), but they are intentionally kept subtle. In some cases, this resulted in them being too subtle -- which sometimes I think is fine, in real life you don't always know what's ahead either (yes, yes, I know, WINRL), and sometimes I think it's overdone...

I have to rework some of the dialog anyway for the next version, I'll try to do something about your comments when I do that.

As for your comment in the spoiler tags, I thought that I had checked for tricks to sneak Grnk by, but I had missed that one. Thanks.

[Sapient]

My replays always get corrupted too. At some point I'll have to sit down and see what causes all these ooS errors as I find that really frustrating. I'm sure I'm doing something that I am not supposed to do in the code, I just don't know what it is...

Things that are unsafe for multiplayer are also causes of replay corruption. I'd start with the sticky thread in WML Workshop that lists such items.

[mattsc]

Thanks for the pointer, Sapient. I'll check that out. Sometime -- so many (Wesnoth) things I want to do, so little time ...

[rmj]

Shadows gave me a lot of trouble. First I assumed the beacon would simply help and then I realized it weakened my units as well as the others. It took several tries before I used it advantageously. When the scenario was obviously winnable, a question arose. Since there is no turn limit, should I dally, gain gold, and level all units to 3? I chose to end it quickly, but don't know if this was unwise. It may come to haunt me later. Perhaps there were hints at the beginning, but mid-scenario one can't reexamine previous dialog.

At present I am attempting Hunting, and have had several failures, and despite several attempts I am still confused about what I should do, specifically in relation to the requirement that Grnk gain level 2 leadership. I leveled him up once, but not twice. Will a second leveling up be sufficient? Can I move the wagon and place the cart at the unloading position before Grnk gains level 2 leadership? That is unclear, although there was a statement that Grnk must have level 2 before he attempts to capture a wolf. I am assuming that he can still advance to level 2 leadership even if this scenario is won, but I am not certain of this.

It seems, as far as my experience goes, that this scenario is too difficult for normal, the level I am playing at (and allied with the mermen). In mainline campaigns usually one attempt gives sufficient information for subsequent attempts to be successful. But here, it seems, that besides finding a winning general strategy, one must also effectively use many particular strategies. I would say this is at a difficult, not a normal level.

[mattsc]

Shadows: You did not miss out on anything. Somebody else also pointed out that you can just sit back and level up everybody at the end of the scenario, but that was not my intention. It's one of the (many) things that I overlooked. I will probably put a turn limit on the scenario in the next release. You're good the way you did it.

Perhaps there were hints at the beginning, but mid-scenario one can't reexamine previous dialog.

I might have given a wrong impression with my "there are subtle hints and you might miss some of them" statement earlier. That only applies to things that are not essential for gameplay. For example, in the first scenario, there's a (very subtle) hint that none of the other units matter, only Grnk goes on after that. If you miss it, you might put effort into saving them, and then that's all for nothing. [Well, from your perspective at least. The units are still grateful that you didn't use them for cannon fodder. ] That's too bad, but it doesn't affect your being able to go on afterward at all. Anything that has a large effect on later scenarios is stated very clearly. Well, that's my intention at least, in some case I missed it (like the above), so if you find anything, please point it out to me. [The campaign is in dire need of a myriad of little fixes, I just haven't had the time to do it yet.]

Hunting: Hmm, interesting. I hadn't thought of this scenario as one of the difficult ones, but of course I have all the inside knowledge, so sometimes I don't see where the problems lie for others. Let me give you a brief description of what you need to do, and then maybe you can tell me which part of that is unclear so that I can try to fix it:

Spoiler:

• First, you need to defeat the enemy leader.
• Afterward, you need to deploy the cage. You have a certain number of turns for these 2 actions before the cart driver calls it quits.
• When you put down the cage, your turn limit gets extended (note that the objectives only talk about deploying the cage up to that point, they change then, but at each time I think they state clearly what your goal is in the available time) and you now need to lure the wolf into the cage (before the rat goes bad -- I like to have "real" reasons for turn limits, rather than just an arbitrary limit)
• When the wolf is in the cage
• The only other thing, IMO, that you need to do is give Grnk L2-leadership, if he does not have it yet. That's one of his AMLA advancements that you can choose from the AMLA menu, so one leveling up is good enough in this scenario (if you haven't done so yet earlier), you just need to choose L2-leadership rather than one of the others (which is what the Turn-3 dialog is about, isn't it?). This needs to be done by the time the wolf steps into the cage.
• I can see that it might not be clear that you have a few more turns after you deploy the cage in which you could level up, but that should only be used as an emergency solution anyway. My intention was that you should have Grnk leveled up by the time you deploy the cage, even though it is not strictly necessary.

Does that make sense? Which part of that is not explained well enough? In my opinion it's all there, but as I said, sometimes I miss these things. Thanks!

Side comment: I do have scenarios where the objectives change as you go along, and sometimes the turn limit changes with them. However, at each time the objectives tell you what you need to do at the given time and no knowledge of the upcoming change is required. I think that's not unfair to the player and at least one of the mainline campaigns (UTBS) does that also, although it is not the standard. It's just a personal preference of mine, rather than putting the different parts of the mission into separate scenarios. Let me know if you disagree, although on this specific point you're unlikely to change my mind. I do agree that the objectives should always be clear and if I missed something, I'm happy to change that.

[Oops, sorry for the long rambling reply. I'll stop now.]

[rmj]

I found a winning strategy for hunting. One problem for me was that I was not anticipating the possibility of level 2 leadership with a level one unit. So I was trying to continually level up Grnk when finally I noticed that a line read L 2 lea... even though he was still level one. I have no idea how much earlier I had reached the requisite level.

Disillusion:
On the objectives screen is a warning to be careful with Koorzhar's units because this has multiple battles. Since it begins with with two different battles and then more follow, I would suggest changing the wording to "a series of battles."
The right clicking on the map to find the area Koorzhar's units shouldn't go to did not work, or at least I saw no obvious change in the map.
I don't recall the name of the reinforcement leader at the top of the map, but since he had the crown icon I assumed I could not allow him to die. A cursory glance at the voluminous coding for this scenario leads me to believe he is expendable. But if he is a hero, then he should not be so willing to leave the keep and get himself surrounded.

I really enjoy Grnk's sad comments on his life at the start of each scenario. Hope you keep them coming.

[mattsc]

One problem for me was that I was not anticipating the possibility of level 2 leadership with a level one unit.

Oh, I see. It says so in his unit description, but if you're like me, you look at the unit description once for a new unit, and it's easy to have forgotten that several scenarios later. I'll add a comment to that effect in the scenario itself.

On the objectives screen is a warning to be careful with Koorzhar's units because this has multiple battles. Since it begins with with two different battles and then more follow, I would suggest changing the wording to "a series of battles."

That makes sense. Will do.

The right clicking on the map to find the area Koorzhar's units shouldn't go to did not work, or at least I saw no obvious change in the map.

Strange, it's very obvious on my screen. See the bit of screen grab below. Not pretty, but obvious. It is done by setting a (very) darkened time area. What version of BfW are you playing and do you have another version available to test this with? I don't remember if there was a problem with time areas in some version.

I don't recall the name of the reinforcement leader at the top of the map, but since he had the crown icon I assumed I could not allow him to die. A cursory glance at the voluminous coding for this scenario leads me to believe he is expendable. But if he is a hero, then he should not be so willing to leave the keep and get himself surrounded.

That's a good point too. Yes, he is expendable (otherwise it would say so in the objectives), so I should take the crown away.

I really enjoy Grnk's sad comments on his life at the start of each scenario. Hope you keep them coming.

Thanks. They'll keep coming throughout Part 1. Part 2 will have a somewhat different theme, but I am planning to do something along those lines also.

Thank you for all the comments. They are very helpful.

[rmj]

I am using 1.9.8 and my screen did not darken as in your snapshot. I doubt that this effect is worth the effort. A simple line of hills or forest could be an obvious barrier to being seen.

In Escape the objectives say "plot Grnks escape...". You can do no such thing.

Am now on Wizards, losing my first attempt.
Mal An is here. I killed him with Grnk and the mermen in the previous scenario.

I am wondering if it is possible to kill Mal An with the three gryphons during the daytime.