Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

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Velensk
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Velensk »

A question for those who complete: On my playthrough I had a problem that it felt like there were a bunch of scenarios where you were fighting under very similar conditions or against very similiar enemies or both for a long stretch (In the jungle, against enemies using slow, drain, berserk, and poison since the Deepwood warriors up until the Raid. Other than just the repeditiveness of this, I also felt it rather encouaged one to stick with the darklander units in preference to mercenaries he player paid extra just to have access to. I was considering trying to work in another scenario or two into that section which would have different terrains and enemies, however this would lengthen the campaign (which is already at a bit longer than I consider ideal length) and would require plenty of work and possibly retesting as well as a few minor tweaks to the plot. I'm willing to do the work but I'd like to know if you think it is a good idea.

As a note: I'll see what I can do about the paddleboat. As near as I can tell the delay was caused by something introduced in 1.9 because paddleboats didn't delay the game upon being hit in 1.8.

EDIT: As a note, I did not do the sorcerer assassination thing HumanResource mentioned but I imagine that it would make the scenario substantially easier. The jungle will keep getting torn up the longer the bugs come and the more intact the jungle is the easier it is to fight the imperialists.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Maiklas3000
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Maiklas3000 »

Scenario 12: Breaking the Spear
(1) What difficulty and version? Normal, 1.9.8, 1.0.1
(2) How difficult? (1-10) 10, I could not beat it without massive save-reloading
(3) How clear? Clear.
(4) Dialog? I would suggest having the leader break the enemy leader's spear as part of a pseudo-religious victory ceremony/dialog, proclaiming to his troops that the spirit of the enemy has been broken and they will never bother the tribes again.
(5) Challenges? Swarms of steadfast chocobones.
(6) How fun? (1-10) 8
(7) Changes? Make it easier. Less gold to enemy. Max 1 steadfast chocobone per turn.
(8) Restarts? Multiple save-reloads on almost every turn after the first few.
(9) WML? Uncommented.
(10) Game summary? I panther-rushed the sorcerer with two Panthers and the Panther Spirit and took him out. I managed to extract all the panthers alive with some skillful moves. Meanwhile, I wailed mercilessly on the enemy at all times of day, killing scores without being killed. Then two groups of four steadfast chocobones advanced, backed up by another four steadfast chocobones, and I couldn't survive this situation without massive save-reloading. Even with save-reloading and massive numbers of leveled Wrath slowing the enemy's charging units, I lost multiple level 3 units every turn. It's a hollow victory, but that's the best I can do. If you kill the sorcerer, it might be best to not advance far initially, so that you can fall back behind the swamp. (If you don't kill the sorcerer, then you have to worry about termites clearing jungle and so need to advance farther forward initially.)
Velensk
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Velensk »

By steadfast chocobones, are you talking about avalanches, shock troops, gargauntaurs, or something else? The imperialists don't actually have any units with the steadfast ability and the closest things to chocobones are the avalanches which are limited to two at a time.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Maiklas3000
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Maiklas3000 »

By steadfast chocobones I meant the Shock Troops (not to be confused with Shock Troopers), which have 50% defense on open ground and a lot of resistances (30% vs blade, impact, and pierce, plus the standard 20% versus arcane.) A strong Shock Troop can do 60 points of damage. Even after slowed, they are fairly deadly. When you are fighting swarms of them, it's rough. Avalanches were not as big a problem, as they are fewer in number, plus they are fast and don't stay mixed in with the rest of the troops.
Velensk
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Velensk »

When I hear chocobone I think of something fast. They should not be getting to use their 50% open ground defense very often but be kept at their 30% in forest at which point they are much easier to take down if you've got strong melee.

Due to the fashion in which red recruits I'm not inclined to limit them to 1 recruit a turn but I might decrease the limit to the amount of them which can exist at the same time. I don't have any problem decreasing the starting gold somewhat, as that scenario gave me a ton of trouble even if I did manage to beat it without saveloading or assassinating the sorcerer, I still had to play it sevenish times and it is a very long scenario to go through.

I would like to direct your attention to the post above the feedback for the final scenario. There is a question there I would like you to answer.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
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Maiklas3000
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Maiklas3000 »

I thought the campaign did a good job of encouraging the player to use mercenary types. You had a couple of open ground scenarios, and the player always wants at least some mercenary types since there is usually some open ground (and swamp/water) in the combat area, plus it helps to have some non-chaotic forces. If you want to add another scenario, I would suggest adding it before one of the scenarios where I had gold problems, and make it easy to get gold there.

The scenario where you buy the mercenaries has the playing choosing blind. I had no idea what a river dragon was, so I didn't buy it. Could you give the player a hint as to what is what? By the way, on this play I deliberately didn't choose the Lost Legion, just to see how it would go. I did regret it, but it's still possible to get through the campaign without them (except maybe the last scenario :P). I would suggest removing one unit to make them less of an automatic pick.

I liked the flavor of the campaign early on. Later on, I dunno, it has less flavor. Maybe it's that the battles are too big. Or maybe it's that the leveled Wrath are too powerful and combat centers around them instead of ranged backstabbers and whatnot. In any case, I do think the leveled Wrath should be tamed somewhat. Even when they attack a powerful ranged unit, they usually wind up almost fully healing themselves in the process (except at day.)

The main suggestion I would have is to tweak the Panthers. In a campaign named Panther Lord, I would have thought Panthers would play more of a role. I did use Panther rushes a couple of times, but Jaguar rushes would have worked about as well. Panthers might be interesting as a weaker unit that has both camouflage and nightstalk. Or another way to do it is to give Panthers 70% defense in jungle, while lowering their hit points a bit. I was surprised that they didn't have 70% defense, but I guess it's because those stupid kid riders don't know how to use the jungle to their advantage.

The Elephants in this era really remind me of tanks, which makes sense. They just need a Dragonguard style ranged attack if you would want them to be tanks. Historically, light cannons were mounted on battle elephants, so it has precedence. I'd like to see a campaign that has WWII flavor scenarios but fantasy units such as this.
Velensk
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Velensk »

I made the elephants to be elephants not tanks. I would like to point out that in the setting this era is based on, and the time period within that setting, you'd be looking at early iron age tech for almost everyone. I can't say for certain as the technology in their world didn't develop in the same order as ours but it seemed to me like gunpowder came late to that setting as around the time the navigation/ship building was Renaissance level nobody seems to have invented it.

I also made this campaign for the era, not the other way around. Panther riders 60% defense is not due to the kids not knowing their way around the jungle (they know it better than anything else) but rather due to the fact that none of the other cats get better defense and I don't see any reason for panthers to be an exception. Reh'Doc has 70% defense as a bonus and because in addition to his panther form he is also an intelegent fighter. If the name confused you I apologize but I'd never intended there to be a special emphasis on panthers other than the fact that one of your main assets is a very powerful panther. Relative to the other cats, the panthers are the weaker and stealthier variety and for multiplayer (which is what I designed this era for) I would rather not have an easily obtainable level 2 with both nightstalk and ambush.

I made plenty of use of my backstabbers, especially in the last battle. Once they get skirmisher they are invaluable for pushing your enemy back at night and getting kills. The priests are indeed awesome units but even once they reach level 4 they don't actually kill quicker than the level 3s at your disposal unless attacking high defense enemies and they are vulnerable to shock troops and other heavy melee units whereas if a shock troop in a jungle tries to charge a a whisper in the jungle they'll take more than they receive on even odds. I actually weakened the whisper awhile back when I was testing this as whispers were simply doing so much damage [mind you, I hadn't gotten to the final scenario, had I played that I might have figured, hey whispers are something you'll only see in your campaign and you really need something like that to take out praetorian with a standard leading them]) I can see though your claim that the priests overshadow them, I think a large part of this is that for the majority of the time you have priests you're fighting in jungles where everyone has high defense or against things weak to arcane (relatively, legions resist arcane but they resist physical just as much or more) and resistant to pierce. In one of the battles I would like to add you'd be fighting sea states cavalry in a somewhat hilly area. I am somewhat inclined to increase the xp requirements for the level 3 form to advance and possibly weaken it a touch but in general I think that they already have a nice balance especially the low level forms (of course, in multiplayer there's pretty much nothing that is weak to arcane so the damage type is a constant disadvantage).

As for the mercenaries, I do list what unit types there are. I guess this somewhat assumes that my players have used the era for multiplayer or played the previous campaign. It's not easy to describe what every single unit is within that little window while still making it easy for the players to see their options. Do you have any suggestions as to how I could convey more accurately what each unit is without clogging down the interface overly much?

I rather like large battles, especially in campaigns. I think however that in this case the campaign suffers from the battles being to similar. It's quite possible to make large battles where the player is not just holding down a line against a solid wall of enemies until one side gives but do not think that I have designed this one so that there are many that are not like that.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Velensk
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Velensk »

New version out with the new scenarios.

Still looking for feedback, especially on the new version.

Also, a new version of Era of Four Moon is out which should fix the invulnerable cursed horse on a bridge over deep water bug. There are also a few balance tweaks to the era.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
The Black Sword
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by The Black Sword »

Hi Velensk,

I'm currently playing through this campaign and its been pretty good so far.
Here are my current thoughts;

2nd scenario (the cave one) seems a bit too easy. Neither thieves nor footpads can put out much damage in the confined space. Splitting the outlaws recruit list in 2 adds more variety but I'd have thought that giving the footies + thieves the 1st more open scenario and the thugs and poachers the cave scenario would be better.
On the other hand the 1st scenario is already very good and maybe you want the player to be in a good position for the next scenario.

Regarding the merc scenario, it would be nice to have the information about fighting the sea states before choosing the mercenaries. I went back and changed Captain Stars to the Sappers who I originally didn't want because I would have to recall. Additionally, when I used the south-west bridges to cross the river, a certain amount of the Red forces didn't fight me but went to stand in front of the wall on the other side of the river along with all of the black forces. This, along with those really nice Sappers, made the scenario quite easy. The first time I played through, I crossed the river between the 2 sets of bridges, holed up in the hills/forest, fought all of red and black and got my ass kicked.
I don't know whether this is the intended behaviour?

The first legion scenario was a bit easy, you quite possibly meant it to be so but I thought I'd mention it. Even if its supposed to set the player up for the next scenario it could still be a be it harder and still play that role I think.

Finally, the scenario I'm currently on, against the plant spirits (Deepwood I think?) is quite annoying. TBH, the trees with ambush berserk and slow seem overpowered to me. I know we are warned to be careful of the forest, but, in particular, my priest was just about to level and I figured nothing hiding in there could kill him inside 2 fights. Apparently I was wrong. Even if you showed the unit at the start in the talking that would be an improvement to warn the player that type of unit would exist.
I'd prefer removing one of the specials though. It is technically possible for any number of these units to jump out at any time and berserk their way through important units, possibly even the 2 heros who might have trouble beating 2 of them, depending on their health. The plants need some counter to how awesome priests are in this scenario but if the player could at least see where the berserkers are then I could plan for them.

Anyhow, everything I haven't mentioned is obviously great and I've really enjoyed the campaign so far. Thanks a lot. :)
Velensk
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Velensk »

In responce to your comments:

The second scenario was intended to be easy.

As for the merc scenario. I basically added the sappers for if you wanted to finish that particular scenario quickly. I didn't use them on my playthrough instead choosing to slaughter the enemy to train of my recently aquired mercenaries. Less gold, more experiance and likely better units to work with. I suppose I could show you your enemies before choosing how to have you recruit but I think that story-wise it makes much less sense. Contract prices should sky-rocket once everyone figures out what is going on. In any case, the AI is specifically programned to avoid the wall. This isn't supposed to be a defense scenario but rather a counter siege. It's quite possible to break out without using the sappers.

As for the scenario you are in: The enemy cannot recruit berserkers, and there is a way to figure out where your enemies are hiding. Observe carefully. That said, I can see the prudence in revealing that they have access to berserkers. In future versions I'll make one of the enemy leaders a berserker just so that you have that hint.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
The Black Sword
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by The Black Sword »

Regarding the merc scenario, I think sappers are quite good for slaughtering the enemy. Mostly I used them for weakening the lvl 2s so they could be killed quickly without doing much damage. I certainly wouldn't have given them any killing blows. IMO they seemed far more useful than 3 Tribesmen as meat shields or something like that.

I'm a bit confused by your reply about the AI. Are you saying it's supposed to concentrate on attacking the player rather than standing in front of the wall? If so, it does not seem to be playing as intended.

Regarding the other comments; fair enough.
Velensk
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Velensk »

Using the sappers to burst through to kill the target enemy leader quickly does indeed give a large amount of experience, but not as much as say, crushing two of your enemies armies in an open field. You could use the sappers for an open field battle but as they are a one shot use I imagine you could come out with a more impressive force if you use the money for something else (captain stars at lvl 4 is an invaluable piece throughout the campaign). It is impossible to give sappers killing blows, and I am not at all sure how you could believe that they are better meatshields than lvl 3 tribemen considering they have no ZoC and 18 hitpoints.

The AI is not supposed to attack the walls, if you read the scenario they are mainly trying to just blockade the city and try to force it into submission. For this assignment there should be no need for them to risk their men by closing in on the walls but they do need to contain the forces within (hence the hang around just outside arrow range behavior). They were undoubtably not expecting a strong independent force to be in the city and desperately wanting to get out at exactly the time they choose to do this.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Njord
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Njord »

I'm playing on Wesnoth 1.9.7 on an Intel Mac and have been enjoying the campaign a lot. I'm stopped while try to start the Ferry scenario with the following message:

Error: The game map could not be loaded: illegal tile in map: (Wwrg) 'Wwrg' The map cannot be loaded.

Does anyone have an idea on how this can be overcome? Thank you.
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Alarantalara
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Alarantalara »

Get version 1.9.9 of Wesnoth. That particular terrain did not exist before that version. (http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/w ... _changelog)

Or you could do a search and replace in the map for that scenario and replace Wwrg with Wwr. It has the same stats, so the terrain will function the same, though it will look different.
Njord
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Re: Panther Lord (EoFM campaign)

Post by Njord »

Thank you, Alarantalara!

Though I have no idea what I'm doing, I found my way into the map section of Panther Lord with a text program and found the one map with the Wwrg terrains and replaced them all as you advised. To my total surprise, it worked! (Not surprised that you were right, but that I was able to figure out how to take your advice!) Am now in the middle of the Ferry scenario and am up against some pretty heavy odds. Thanks again.
Alarantalara wrote:Get version 1.9.9 of Wesnoth. That particular terrain did not exist before that version. (http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/w ... _changelog)

Or you could do a search and replace in the map for that scenario and replace Wwrg with Wwr. It has the same stats, so the terrain will function the same, though it will look different.
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