Ghostly Calls

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Wayirr
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Wayirr » February 13th, 2012, 7:02 am

How would he retreat being completely surrounded by my units?

I think, time limit is pretty enough in case you will not explore side passages and kill all the enemy units in order to take the villages, But if not to explore the passages, why is it there at all?

P.S. I was able to finish the scenario in 36 turns when walked straight into the right passage, but lost the blood bat, as it was delaying the mages in the passage while I was able to spawn two skeletons.

For some strange reason mages used their staff to hit skeletal warriors, so my two skeletons was able to hold the passage till the very end of scenario

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Suukorak
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Suukorak » February 13th, 2012, 12:09 pm

Silver Mages are not the only ones to teleport… just because he fights with a fireball doesn’t mean that’s all he can do.
It’s there to keep you moving. You have to escape in sufficient time to have some time for the next scenario.
There’s nothing wrong with losing the blood bat, i still do from time to time…
The mages melee? That’s weird. I don’t know, that’s probably an AI problem rather than one with the scenario, but I’ll take a look…
Thanks for your feedback.
He who is still learning WML, can still make a campaign. (or at least try)

You are an Arch Mage - You're definitely intelligent, but some people would say you spend too much time inside. The power you have learned, however, is simply unmatched.

Wayirr
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Wayirr » February 15th, 2012, 9:53 am

Another bug found: missing scenario fail objective "death of Navi" or something like that, wesnoth only show a bullet without text.
Spoiler:
Another bug:
Spoiler:
Also, you should replace Drake Slasher to Drake Arbiter and Drake Gladiator to Drake Thrasher, like that, or else Wesnoth report unknown unit type

Wayirr
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Wayirr » February 20th, 2012, 7:59 am

I will add another post just in case you didn't see the last one

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shadowm
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by shadowm » February 20th, 2012, 8:09 am

Wayirr wrote:I will add another post just in case you didn't see the last one
Not good. See point 1f in the Posting Guidelines. It’s not even been a whole week yet; the topic author presumably reads all posts given enough time to do so.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

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Suukorak
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Suukorak » February 20th, 2012, 2:47 pm

Okay, in order of their mentioning:

Perhaps I can do that once I get a better understanding of the programming needed. I will do a little research on the wiki and I’ll see what I can do.

Well, hyperpowerful magical artifacts aren’t a dime a dozen, not even in Wesnoth. If every campaign with artifacts created its own, eventually every peasant could have one… and that’s probably not the case.

It’s up to you. He isn’t the most loyal to your cause, but he’s a strong fighter. You decide – is he worth the risk?

I’m sorry not to be able to help you in the case of the early finish bonus, but I’ve had several problems with that and doubt my ability to fix it. However, i’ll do my best.

Once again, thanks for the feedback, and sorry for the delayed reply.
He who is still learning WML, can still make a campaign. (or at least try)

You are an Arch Mage - You're definitely intelligent, but some people would say you spend too much time inside. The power you have learned, however, is simply unmatched.

lynx
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by lynx » February 21st, 2012, 5:21 pm

Played up to Return to the catacombs, where Wayirr's cosmetic scenario goal bug can be seen.

So far so good, but the narrow corridors made the last two scenarios pretty annoying and this one will be the same.

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Suukorak
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Suukorak » February 22nd, 2012, 12:10 am

lynx wrote:Played up to Return to the catacombs, where Wayirr's cosmetic scenario goal bug can be seen.

So far so good, but the narrow corridors made the last two scenarios pretty annoying and this one will be the same.
I’m sorry, I don’t quite understand. A cosmetic scenario goal bug? Please be more specific.

Yes, but I think it also makes them remarkably interesting. You have to have the right unit in the right place… it requires planning. Good luck! Hopefully you won’t be annoyed as much once the open expanses return.

Thanks for your feedback!
He who is still learning WML, can still make a campaign. (or at least try)

You are an Arch Mage - You're definitely intelligent, but some people would say you spend too much time inside. The power you have learned, however, is simply unmatched.

lynx
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by lynx » February 22nd, 2012, 8:21 am

Another bug found: missing scenario fail objective "death of Navi" or something like that, wesnoth only show a bullet without text.
That one.

While having 1 hex corridors is good for defense, it would be much more friendly if atleast the terrain was not a cave, but dirt/flat in more places.

It is also funny to see the mages attacking full hp skeletons with melee — I hope it's not a general wesnoth regression.

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Alarantalara
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Alarantalara » February 22nd, 2012, 10:37 pm

lynx wrote: It is also funny to see the mages attacking full hp skeletons with melee — I hope it's not a general wesnoth regression.
It's not — it's just that when aggression is set to more than 1, the AI interprets that to mean that the attack most likely to kill itself is the best choice. In the scenario in question, aggression is currently 5. Changing to 1 will remove that problem.

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Suukorak
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Suukorak » February 23rd, 2012, 12:02 am

Alarantalara wrote:
lynx wrote: It is also funny to see the mages attacking full hp skeletons with melee — I hope it's not a general wesnoth regression.
It's not — it's just that when aggression is set to more than 1, the AI interprets that to mean that the attack most likely to kill itself is the best choice. In the scenario in question, aggression is currently 5. Changing to 1 will remove that problem.
Oh dear. I see… thank you for explaining this. I’m sorry for not understanding the AI’s function well – but now the error has been revealed, I’ll remedy it at once.
Thanks for the feedback and help!
He who is still learning WML, can still make a campaign. (or at least try)

You are an Arch Mage - You're definitely intelligent, but some people would say you spend too much time inside. The power you have learned, however, is simply unmatched.

Wayirr
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Wayirr » February 27th, 2012, 1:41 pm

Alarantalara wrote:it's just that when aggression is set to more than 1, the AI interprets that to mean that the attack most likely to kill itself is the best choice. In the scenario in question, aggression is currently 5. Changing to 1 will remove that problem.
I guess, the attack when AI is agressive, should be calculated in a way where there's more chances to kill the object without considering his own loss, for example, if there was only one attack slot for a skeleton and a bunch of almost dead magi which can reach the cell, each one should hit the skel with staff and die, releasing the attack slot for next one, than the attack which is more likely to let the unit kill itself is more reasonable, but when there is only two magi in narrow passage, than only first one (preferably with low hp) should attack with the staff, but second one should attack with fire instead, because his self-kill won't help

Or is it the case for some agression mode?

lynx
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by lynx » March 2nd, 2012, 3:06 pm

The early parts are now maybe too hard, but I had to stop playing. It was just too boring. Infinite gold and no real challenge, especially since you can recruit more and more high level units. It's true to the undead tank rush style, but the second bunch of scenarios is just all the same, dragged-out and on large maps. As a lich, I would delegate such petty conquests. :twisted:

Shakeshake
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by Shakeshake » April 26th, 2012, 2:02 am

1. I did not encounter any bugs (other than the AI issue that caused mages to use their melee attack against melee opponents).
2. Normal
3. Don't know WML
4. In terms of game-play, I found this campaign a little boring; I stopped after the mission in which the necromancer is resurrected (the 4th scenario, I think).
The combination of giant maps and mostly 1 hex wide corridors made scenarios long and combat generally hit or miss (if things go well on rolls to hit, it becomes to easy, if things go poorly, it becomes too hard, since the possibility of ganging up on the enemy is often not an option).
On the first scenario, on normal at least, I found John Dee to be fairly easy to kill using the Shadow's backstab at night.
The second mission on the very small map wasn't bad, but it wasn't much of a challenge either.
The winding corridors of underground missions seemed somewhat pointless to me--both because many of them were just dead ends and when there were villages at the ends, the creatures guarding them were generally much more powerful than anything at my disposal (this wouldn't be as much of a problem if all the avenues of attack weren't only 1 hex wide, but with only one hex to work with, even troll whelps became near impossible adversaries). However, capturing the out of the way villages ultimately seemed fairly pointless anyway, as I wasn't really in need of the gold (and the next scenario started me with more than enough) and their location made most of them fairly useless as healing locations.

In the mission where the necromancer is resurrected (the 4th I think), many of the corridors in the "rough" part of the cave also seemed similarly unnecessary, as did the location of the villages (while I can see why you wouldn't want to make the villages too easy to capture, gold/upkeep wasn't an issue for me as I used almost all units that were either loyal or level zero (walking corpses) nor were the villages located in positions that were useful for healing, making capturing them pointless). Furthermore, it was unclear to me which way I should flee at the start of the 4th scenario to get to the altar, and after waiting a few turns (which I probably would have to recruit/recall units anyway) it became impossible for me to reach the altar via the "rough" caves given the slow movement of Ahab there.
However, I experienced the same AI issue that caused the mages to use their melee attack on my walking corpses, ultimately leading me to easily defeat all of them with a plague-born horde. I had been trying to take Ahab through the caves to the altar, however, by the time I found the altar entrance, I could see it would be impossible to reach it through the caves, so I had to reload, defeat the mages again, and go through the mages' corridors to the other entrance. This doesn't seem to me to be the intended strategy for the mission--if you want players to go through the caves I would suggest adding dialog that makes it clear that they need to, first of all, go into the caves not the walled corridors, and second, flee nearly immediately in order to have enough time to reach the destination.
I defeated the mage leaders on my way to the altar, therefore the second part of the mission was fairly simple--I didn't really even need to use the (very overpowered) army the necromancer resurrected with himself since the "backdoor" cave he opened up allowed me to just send my bats/ghosts in to kill the reinforcements' leader with minimal resistance.
Upon reaching the next scenario and seeing that it was a huge map of winding corridors in which I started with over 1000 gold, I decided to stop playing the campaign--given that amount of gold it seemed my victory would be fairly certain/easy but also that I would have to spend a lot of time slowly moving units through the giant labyrinth, which didn't seem like much fun.

Even though I stopped playing the campaign, I don't think it is entirely a lost cause, although it would require significant changes for me to truly enjoy it. My suggestions would be to make some corridors wider in the caves, to allow for fighting that isn't just 1-on-1. Put more enemies in the caves--while the 1-on-1 fighting makes most enemies difficult to defeat in the caves--the huge expanses of empty cave were just boring to me. Widening the caves would make fighting easier/faster which would in turn allow fill up the caves a bit more with enemies without making the scenarios impossible.
I felt that there were almost too many loyal units given to the player--while I like the gradual expansion of the recruit list to match Ahab's developing powers, I was sort of expecting the original spirit to from the book to be the main "guide" on Ahab's quest, and felt like having a new loyal unit appear in every scenario cheapened the role I expected it to fill.

5. Do you have any suggestions for the storyline?
I can't comment on the full storyline, but I think the story of a young dark-artist's development certainly has interesting potential.

6. I am thinking of making a sequel. Any thoughts or suggestions on that?
As I didn't finish, I can't comment on the story for a sequel. But I in terms of gameplay I would suggest trying to make the maps "denser" (smaller and more action packed)--most of my time playing this was just moving through tunnels, which, to me, wasn't really that fun.

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dogscoff
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Re: Ghostly Calls

Post by dogscoff » May 1st, 2012, 12:02 pm

I am currently playing this campaign on hard mode. I got as far as the Sceptre of Fire Map, decided that I didn't have enough high-level units, and am now replaying it from scratch. Have made it back to the attack on the library. Obviously my comments are of limited value since I haven't finished it yet, but here's what I have so far. Obviously, spoliers ahoy.

Overall, I am enjoying it. I like the characters, and I can't wait for the end when all these necromancer types inevitably start stabbing each other in the back. I also like the fact that you really get to see how every race in Wesnoth hates undead, and will gladly team up with their worst enemy in order to bash some skeletons. It doesn't take long to start getting something of a persecution complex. I like big epic battles in this game (my favourite campaign is Northern Rebirth), which many of your maps provide, and I have found every map challenging but winnable. You really have to think about the strengths of your units and the weaknesses of your enemy to triumph, and formulate different strategies for different maps.

At the current difficulty level, I am inclined to consider the "suicide mage" behaviour more of a feature than a bug: Without them helpfully throwing themselves upon the axes of my skeletons, there's no way I could have completed the 3rd, 4th or 5th scenarios in time, or with any worthwhile units in my recall list. If you can adjust the difficulty level to compensate, having the mages behave a bit more rationally would be a good thing.


Criticisms: The main one is something that has been raised already: The maps are too damn big. Trudging across a forest or through featureless tunnels at 2hexes per turn for 10 or 20 turns is not fun. Condense the maps please, shorten the essential tunnels. I don't much care about the dead-end tunnels. Reduce the size of the forests, or add more combat to them (with more time to compensate).

Also, somebody mentioned that there seem to be too many loyal units. I can see their point about diluting the characters, but overall I have to disagree. The loyal units have many useful traits (I find myself recalling the loyal Soulless because he is quick, inteligent, strong) and without them I don't think I would have a chance of winning the scenario. Also, undead minions are supposed to be (for the most part) characterless. I've enjoyed having hordes of utterly expendable mooks that I can order off to certain destruction without a hint of remorse.

One thing I don't like is the endless succession of artifacts that Ahab is being asked to fetch. A few artefacts is fine, but after the third "we must capture the magic teaspoon of Zog" map in a row I did start to roll my eyes.

Drake necromancers: Don't get me wrong, I love having a flying level 2 unit with a fire attack, a 5-hit magic zombificaton attack, a magic blast and decent melee. Especially when I can put them next to a level 3 leadership unit. I just think they may be a little overpowered. That said, as with the suicide mages and the loyal units, I feel like I need every advantage you are willing to offer me, so I'm not sure they need to be removed. Also, they *are* very fragile, especially against cavalry and archers.

Might I suggest the following:
Rework one or two of the artifact maps into a bit of backstory for the drake necromancers: Nave has heard of these necromancers in some far-off place, and you have to fight your way to their enclave, then help them overthrow the mainstream drakes who have rejected them, in order to win their support. Reduce or remove the DN's melee attack (for the same reason dark adepts get no melee) and reduce their resistances.

Being able to recruit specialist corpses (for example, fish-zombies) would be handy. Maybe there could be a branch scenario or bonus objective somewhere that grants you that ability?

Stuff I have enjoyed so far:
- sending 20 kamikaze ghouls into the maw of an approaching horde of level 2 and 3 units, then mopping up the poisoned aftermath with walking corpses to create a shambling insta-army.

- Drake necromancers. Seriously, I love those guys. They are too powerful, but that's why they're fun.

- Burning through >6000 gold in two maps, despite spending conservatively.

- My "Supernatural Assassination Squad": A bunch of buffed, loyal spectres and backstabbers who can sneak past the approaching army and kill the leaders.

- Using a couple of spectres and a stack of swimming corpses (make sure you pick up at least two or three of these in scenarios 3 and 5) to zombify the stupid trolls in scenario 7: Lure them into the water with the spectres, who will strip them of nearly all hitpoints, then send in the fishbait.

- Your mage naming scheme.

- Frantically searching for a survival strategy (and maybe later a winning strategy) in the Sceptre of Fire scenario.

- Killing Schroedinger by sneaking a couple of shadows past his defences and then backstabbing him to death.

- Stupid dwarves wandering about in a forest. They deserved everything they got.

- Some of the death dialogue. What does "Red Water" mean, or would that be a spoiler?

- Building a collection of all the different zombie types. The goblin zombies are cute.

Stuff I did not enjoy:
- 20 turns of walking Nave & Ahab across a featureless plain after my assassination squad had killed John Dee and the Orc leader in scenario 6.

- 20 turns of shuffling Nave across a featureless forest after locating the artifact and subduing the opposition in the "really big forest with lots of outlaws" scenario.

- 20 turns of shuffling Nave across a featureless forest after locating the artifact and subduing the opposition in the "really big forest with lots of elves" scenario.

- Scenarios that say "Nave or Ahab collect the artefact" when realistically only Nave stands even the slightest chance of getting there in time.




As I said, I haven't finished playing the campaign yet, so please consider the above in that light. I'll be back to say more as I progress.

But please keep working on this campaign, it is good already, and imho has potential to be great.
Collection of my wesnoth bits and pieces at http://www.dogscoff.co.uk/wesnoth/wesnoth.htm

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