Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
10
16%
Reaper
6
9%
Scythemaster
4
6%
Shadowalker
3
5%
Shadow Prince
7
11%
Siege Troll
3
5%
Sky Goblin
1
2%
Snow Hunter
7
11%
Soul Shooter
3
5%
Swordmaster
12
19%
Troll Boulderlobber
0
No votes
Warlock
5
8%
Werewolf Rider
2
3%
Zombie Rider
1
2%
 
Total votes: 64

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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

@ElderofZion I've pushed a fix.
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Elder2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Elder2 »

I would also like to now voice my opinion about the scenario. I have played it 2 times not counting remakes etc and both times we played on rather hard difficulty, we came to the buffed spell eater bosses and then died. Now after some reconsideration I do not want to play this scenario ever again. I think I understand now why it is so unpopular in MP.

1. The scenario is very long, additionally slowed by the message pop ups of the items collected by your allies, it can last over 5h until the first, I can only assume, randomly generated spell eater boss.

2. It is not really fun, it is very repetative only made worse by its length, and then at the end you have bosses which, if not unbeatable, would take very long to defeat, I will touch on it later.

3. It is not really hard to go through all the waves until you meet the ridiculous spell eater boss if players know what they are doing and have at least decent idea what characters to pick and how to build them, usually even if other characters die you can have a few, or even in many cases just one good player with a strong character who can carry the game, especially with the merchant gem bugs, that may be one of the main reasons that makes it even more tedious because it is important to move you zombies back and forth to farm gems. All this adds to the second reason.

4. The spell eater bosses, most likely they are randomly generated and I think they are meant to be unbeatable, at least if they get around 2000 hp, about 450-2 ranged attack and 800-1 mele attack, but actually thanks to the game mechanics every one of these bosses no matter how strong in theory is beatable, if you have a perfect guerilla build and 50-1000 turns of time! You will actually need even more if you are a fanatic. That is right, if you are persistent enough you could run from them and deal more damage to them than they can heal in villages, you can use no counterattack attacks for that, but with 2000 hp or more, that is not exactly fast, pleasant or fun, and it begs the question "What is the point?" After all the scenario has no end, at least so it seems, and I do not want to use debug or look into the files to find out if the bosses actually end. And basically every one of these spell eater bosses seems to be like that, even though you can roll a weaker one, and you need 5h of gameplay to get to them. So, I think the only solution to this would be to make the scenario finite, if the spell eater bosses are meant to be beatable, just that you wanted the players to cheese them for a ridiculous amount of turns Dugi, then that is more like a torture and makes no sense. And if these bosses are meant to be unbeatable then the loti mechanics makes them beatable, just that it is not fun to do it.

As a side note loti hordes of the other world is also not popular, in almost all casses it is dismissed because it is crazy long, but now I would rather play that one than the gladiators.
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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

As far as I can see, the scenario carries on forever, bosses and all, until you die. If anyone wants to make more LotI multiplayer maps, I can do the programming part and upload to the server.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

I am not sure if 'having fun while scaring enemies' is the right description for the upgrade of adding 'leeching' to Efraims 'wave of fear'. xD

EDIT: It's possible to have the upgrade 'cause fear faster' twice in the level up screen, when you only chose 'causing stronger fear' every time.

EDIT 2: The ability 'forsaken' doesn't seem to work properly with fire, arcane and impact resistances. It doesn't increase these resistances only when there is no ally next to my unit, it always increases them by 20% regardless of wheter an allied unit is next to it or not.
(Btw Umbra didn't recruit the full keep for apparently no reason.)

EDIT 3: Soul eater doesn't work with 'cone'. So. I kill four units, I get the xp, but I get only one soul. :C (This might be intended, but I don't know about it yet.)
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LotI1-The_Beginning-Auto-Save13.gz
Forsaken bug, Efraim 26,34
Lethalia on 18,25 attacks 18,26
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angelofhell_hau
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by angelofhell_hau »

I've this problem when I get a blackguard.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

The elves in 'Gods' are kinda all over the place.

EDIT: The white mages seem to be still unhitable after you arrive and the trolls get gold.

EDIT 2: Why is Efraims 'fury' attack not affected by items that change the dmg type? My example in this case is Efraim having a Holy Sword, but the fury attack still does blade dmg. What is he attacking with? ._.

EDIT 3: In the scenario 'Umbra' there is a narrator message after Umbra arrived: "Seeing their divine incarnation, all the evil elves were inspired and their power in combat grew."
But. I can't see any difference before/after Umbra arrived. The elves are just as 'strong'. So...yeah. :(
Attachments
LotI1-Umbra-Auto-Save2.gz
EDIT 3: Look at the elves. End the turn. Read the dialogue. Look at the elves again. See no difference.
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LotI1-Darkness_Closing_In-Auto-Save4.gz
EDIT 2: Efraim 26,19 having a Holy Sword.
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LotI1-Gods-Auto-Save36.gz
EDIT: Invincible white mage.
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LotI1-Gods-Auto-Save27.gz
Look at the replay. ^^
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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

@Konrad2:
  1. Forsaken: The LotI code is correct, so this is probably a wesnoth bug. I'll investigate further.
  2. Fury: The attack is specified as using blade, so it might be intentional: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LotI_Unit_Adva ... berserk1_2. @Dugi?
  3. Fear faster: Fixed
  4. White mages: The comment in the source file says "It used to be a problem that the trolls killed the mages", so I think this is deliberate. The trolls only get gold after the player turns up anyway, so the unhittable-ness of the mages will have no effect before then.
  5. Umbra: Yes, nothing happens, apart from them having a new unit. Maybe something should. @Dugi?
  6. Soul eater + cone: Not sure about intended, but having cone soul gathering might be to OP.
  7. Fun wave of fear: I guess becoming a lich does affect one's mental state... ^_^
@angelofhell_hau Fixed.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

@matsjoyce
4. If remember it right, the problem was the trolls killing the white mages *before* you arrive. Because every side has +2 gold income. That's why it is almost guaranteed that the trolls recruit at least one unit before you arrive. And they can kill the white mages like that. (I might actually have been the one who reported that?) If the priest (Mage of Light - Jacob) can't be killed, then the lose condition (him dying) would make no sense.
"Death of the one who knows more about gods"


EDIT:
Konrad2 wrote:At the end of 'A long way home' Lethalia and Efraim part ways, with Lethalia saying that she goes to the forest for reinforcements. But she doesn't bring any reinforcements when arriving at Ogira...

EDIT: In 'Toxic Sun' the leader of side 5 and 6 don't have any special abilities (at least I couldn't spot any).
Arsenius (leader of side 2 in 'The Poison') lacks a special ability as well.
Konrad2 wrote:"charging backstab" does not work as described. "...it also causes this unit to take double damage from the target's counterattack". I don't receive double damage though, only normal damage.
Konrad2 wrote:The elves in 'Gods' are kinda all over the place.
(I meant that they travel around for no reason. Shouldn't they be in that forest instead of walking all over the map?)

Whats with these?

EDIT 2: "Umbra"
Both the enemy leader and Umbra don't leave items upon death. :/

EDIT 3: "The Army of Darkness"
At the entrance dialogue the merman ask for you help and Lethalia says '...We must help and we must succeed.'
But the death of the mermans is of no consequence. :/
Btw. Why is Efraim freaking out so much?

...and how did they get their new elvish recruits?
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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

Konrad2 wrote: In 'Toxic Sun' the leader of side 5 and 6 don't have any special abilities (at least I couldn't spot any).
Arsenius (leader of side 2 in 'The Poison') lacks a special ability as well.
Toxic Sun is fixed, but I don't see any special stuff Arsenius is meant to have?
Konrad2 wrote:"charging backstab" does not work as described. "...it also causes this unit to take double damage from the target's counterattack". I don't receive double damage though, only normal damage.
Code looks fine to me. Do you have a savegame I can play with?
Konrad2 wrote:The elves in 'Gods' are kinda all over the place.
(I meant that they travel around for no reason. Shouldn't they be in that forest instead of walking all over the map?)
Any particular reason? The elves said they would be back.
Konrad2 wrote: 4. If remember it right, the problem was the trolls killing the white mages *before* you arrive. Because every side has +2 gold income. That's why it is almost guaranteed that the trolls recruit at least one unit before you arrive. And they can kill the white mages like that. (I might actually have been the one who reported that?) If the priest (Mage of Light - Jacob) can't be killed, then the lose condition (him dying) would make no sense.
"Death of the one who knows more about gods"
Konrad2 wrote:At the end of 'A long way home' Lethalia and Efraim part ways, with Lethalia saying that she goes to the forest for reinforcements. But she doesn't bring any reinforcements when arriving at Ogira...
These are for @Dugi, I just fix bugs.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

matsjoyce wrote:Toxic Sun is fixed, but I don't see any special stuff Arsenius is meant to have?
I'm refering to what every enemy leader has. Every leader has at least one thing making him special compared to other units of his type. That Necromancer in 'Toxic Sun' e.g. has 'necromancy'. Some leaders have an ability, some have a weapon special. Arsenius has nothing like that. He is just a normal Fire Dragon. (Lack of consistency.)
matsjoyce wrote:Code looks fine to me. Do you have a savegame I can play with?
I've got one for you. (Charging backstab)
matsjoyce wrote:Any particular reason? The elves said they would be back.
(Elves in Gods) At some point the elves 'appear' on the map, probably triggered by talking to the leader of Aloh? And then almost every elf starts moving around, probably trying to reach an enemy leader, trying to kill them. Instead of staying in the forest. That results in 2 of them being killed by the soldiers in Aloh and one of them actually almost made it to the saurians, sort of compromising the story element of them waiting in the forest.
The 'bug' would be that there is no code to make them stay in the forest.


Question: What kind of weapon would be 'jaws'? (Bone dragon)
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Charging Backstab. Have fun.
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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

Konrad2 wrote:
matsjoyce wrote:Toxic Sun is fixed, but I don't see any special stuff Arsenius is meant to have?
I'm refering to what every enemy leader has. Every leader has at least one thing making him special compared to other units of his type. That Necromancer in 'Toxic Sun' e.g. has 'necromancy'. Some leaders have an ability, some have a weapon special. Arsenius has nothing like that. He is just a normal Fire Dragon. (Lack of consistency.)
Hmm, I didn't notice that before. Any suggestions on what a dragon should have? Maybe this: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LotI_Abilities ... 0.93_dummy
Konrad2 wrote:
matsjoyce wrote:Code looks fine to me. Do you have a savegame I can play with?
I've got one for you. (Charging backstab)
Thanks. Turns out there is a few bugs. Charging backstab is broken in 1.12, but is fixed in 1.13. It could be fixed in 1.12, but it will require some lua. The second bug is that the attack already had backstab, which is meant to override charging backstab (backstab is better), but the bug prevented the overriding, which I've fixed. That leads to the question of why there is an attack with a useless special, as now it is just a clone of dagger, but weaker. I'll put together a PR for this one.
Konrad2 wrote:
matsjoyce wrote:Any particular reason? The elves said they would be back.
(Elves in Gods) At some point the elves 'appear' on the map, probably triggered by talking to the leader of Aloh? And then almost every elf starts moving around, probably trying to reach an enemy leader, trying to kill them. Instead of staying in the forest. That results in 2 of them being killed by the soldiers in Aloh and one of them actually almost made it to the saurians, sort of compromising the story element of them waiting in the forest.
The 'bug' would be that there is no code to make them stay in the forest.
They only spawn when you come within 15 hexes of 26,67, so usually you will discover them right after they appear. I guess you were just unlucky then? I could add guardian to them, but then they will become a lot less aggressive and the player would be able to ignore them by avoiding them, which would be just as bad.
Konrad2 wrote:Question: What kind of weapon would be 'jaws'? (Bone dragon)
Currently there are no jaws weapons.
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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

Konrad2 wrote:EDIT 3: "The Army of Darkness"
At the entrance dialogue the merman ask for you help and Lethalia says '...We must help and we must succeed.'
But the death of the mermans is of no consequence. :/
Btw. Why is Efraim freaking out so much?
Stress I guess? It's a hard life running from undead all the time. I've added this on the list at https://github.com/Dugy/Legend_of_the_I ... /issues/52.
Konrad2 wrote:...and how did they get their new elvish recruits?
Teleportation from friendly woods of course! :eng:
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

matsjoyce wrote:Hmm, I didn't notice that before. Any suggestions on what a dragon should have? Maybe this: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LotI_Abilities ... 0.93_dummy
Looks good to me.
matsjoyce wrote: Thanks. Turns out there is a few bugs. Charging backstab is broken in 1.12, but is fixed in 1.13. It could be fixed in 1.12, but it will require some lua. The second bug is that the attack already had backstab, which is meant to override charging backstab (backstab is better), but the bug prevented the overriding, which I've fixed. That leads to the question of why there is an attack with a useless special, as now it is just a clone of dagger, but weaker. I'll put together a PR for this one.
The plan was for both to stack instead of replacing each other. Basically dealing quadruple dmg instead of dealing double dmg. Charging, but only if you are backstabbing.
matsjoyce wrote:They only spawn when you come within 15 hexes of 26,67, so usually you will discover them right after they appear. I guess you were just unlucky then? I could add guardian to them, but then they will become a lot less aggressive and the player would be able to ignore them by avoiding them, which would be just as bad.
Could you make them aim for my units/leaders instead of generally enemy leaders?
matsjoyce wrote:Currently there are no jaws weapons.
Not cool. xD Or rather, that's fine, I just wish you could craft one.
matsjoyce wrote:Stress I guess? It's a hard life running from undead all the time. I've added this on the list at https://github.com/Dugy/Legend_of_the_I ... /issues/52.
Thanks.
matsjoyce wrote:Teleportation from friendly woods of course! :eng:
Add it to the list. ^^ It should be mentioned somewhere at least. :(

EDIT: Update to the 'forsaken' bug. It seems to work properly right now. Maybe it's a combination of circumstance that make it (not) work?
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Efraim
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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

@Konrad2 Dugi answered the list: https://github.com/Dugy/Legend_of_the_I ... -342297959

It seems that in the buggy savegame there is some weird interaction between items, probably the Mithral Armour of Wrath, but it's hard to tell. I can make it work fine by unequiping all the items, and then re-equipping. If you notice it again, post another savegame.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

Regarding the white mages: Now I'd like to complain about the lose condition 'Death of the one who knows more about gods' one of those mages is exactly that person. And he can't be hit. So....yeah.

And I retract my explanation about charging backstab. I have no idea about it. :D

EDIT: Why are there two sprites(?) for Efraims Lich form?
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