Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Elvish Nightprowler
5
14%
Elvish Overlord
0
No votes
Elvish Seer
7
20%
Elvish Warlord
1
3%
Exterminator
5
14%
Forester
0
No votes
Goblin Ravager
0
No votes
Goblin Warbanner
0
No votes
Grim Knight
0
No votes
Faerie Incarnation
7
20%
Infernal Knight
1
3%
Lich King
3
9%
Lunatic Knight
4
11%
Monstrosity
0
No votes
Orcish Nightblade
0
No votes
Orcish Strafer
1
3%
Pilum Master
0
No votes
Orcish Warmonger
1
3%
Phantom
0
No votes
Predator
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 35

Zarkussell
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Zarkussell »

To resolve the display bug for iPhone regarding hero advancements, could you make it where a simple double click on the chosen advancement would take just as going down and hitting the okay button? Since it won't display at all after a certain point on the iPhone platform.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Sorry, forgot about this:
Ashes wrote:My proposal, based on your idea, would be that each time a unit kills another unit, the damage of the killer is lowered a bit (e.g. by 10% of the current value). The gameplay explaining this effect is that killing too easily is boring. And at the end of the turn, everything is back to normal (unlike lethargy, this effect is to prevent killing to many units in one turn, not to make the unit vulnerable during the following turns).
It could make sense, but I am not certain if introducing such a mechanic globally would not attract too many complains and rotten tomatoes. And bug reports.

But I am not opposed to that idea from the practical point of view, it can solve an old problem, it would not be unrealistic ([acronym=Install the add-on named 'Ultra Super Death Gore Fest Chainsawer 3000' and the lethargy penalty will be even more justified]killing hurts[/acronym]).

Any opinions from others?
Zarkussell wrote:To resolve the display bug for iPhone regarding hero advancements, could you make it where a simple double click on the chosen advancement would take just as going down and hitting the okay button? Since it won't display at all after a certain point on the iPhone platform.
I cannot do that. Add-ons have little control over that panel. Is there really no way to contact that iPhone guy?

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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

Dugi wrote:Sorry, forgot about this:
Ashes wrote:My proposal, based on your idea, would be that each time a unit kills another unit, the damage of the killer is lowered a bit (e.g. by 10% of the current value). The gameplay explaining this effect is that killing too easily is boring. And at the end of the turn, everything is back to normal (unlike lethargy, this effect is to prevent killing to many units in one turn, not to make the unit vulnerable during the following turns).
It could make sense, but I am not certain if introducing such a mechanic globally would not attract too many complains and rotten tomatoes. And bug reports.

But I am not opposed to that idea from the practical point of view, it can solve an old problem, it would not be unrealistic ([acronym=Install the add-on named 'Ultra Super Death Gore Fest Chainsawer 3000' and the lethargy penalty will be even more justified]killing hurts[/acronym]).

Any opinions from others?
Well, the fact is in this campaign we have to have a way of mass killing, so either we have enemy kamikaze attacks, or we will need the AoE attacks to be way more powerful and not have as many penalties. Maybe instead of lowering killer damage you could lower attack damage generally, and hand out more AoE. Could make for an interesting tactical problem, as the game would go from how do I support my bait unit for maximum enemy death to where and when do I use my meteor strike.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

matsjoyce wrote:Well, the fact is in this campaign we have to have a way of mass killing, so either we have enemy kamikaze attacks, or we will need the AoE attacks to be way more powerful and not have as many penalties. Maybe instead of lowering killer damage you could lower attack damage generally, and hand out more AoE. Could make for an interesting tactical problem, as the game would go from how do I support my bait unit for maximum enemy death to where and when do I use my meteor strike.
If AoE attacks were more powerful and had lower penalties, they would make non-AoE units very much inferior.

Thinking about the ways it's dealt with in other games:
Most strategy games: Strong units are larger and AoE will not hit too many of them
Dungeons and Dragons: Mages with AoE are squishy, fighters are much more durable (AoE is heavily penalised and nearly unavailable), clerics are somewhere between the two
Diablo II: Fighters don't have AoE but their durability potential borders with the ridiculous, mages have AoE but can die easily if you are not careful (I figured out how to make a fighter with AoE and it was fuuuun!)
Path of Exile: AoE is easily available to anyone, the only reason not to have it is to get slightly more damage when facing a boss
Elder Scrolls: Rarely happens that you fight more enemies at once, they rarely stand together
Witcher: The area hit is very small, hitting more than one enemy requires favourable conditions
Doom: Enemies rarely clump together, you are dead long before they amass close to you
My next project: Either the range is small or you need to sacrifice much of cast frequency or durability to get meaningful damage output that way

This gives me the idea that maybe AoE could make the unit vulnerable instead of reducing the damage (just like lethargy, but -5% resistance instead of -2 damage). This way, you might be able to use a unit to blast huge AoE damage all the time, but you would have to screen him. What do you say?

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Ashes idea sounds like it might work. On the other hand, I don´t understand all the calls that more/stronger AoE is needed, I just think with the current penalties its just not worth it and thus never take it if I have the choice. But I am very experienced and very grindy (and I hack legacies), thus my army is certainly way above average strength.

From a reasoning point of view: I think reducing the current terrain defense would be more logical (e.g. the unit has to concentrate on casting spells and can´t pay attention to cover. Your armor on the other hand shouldn´t be affected by your own spellcasting...). This would have to be balanced carefully as e.g. any berserk demon would be insta kill on mages and the like, but if undertuned it probably wouldn´t be felt all that much/at all.
Under blood-red skies - an old man sits -
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

Zarkussell
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Zarkussell »

@dugi
Who is the iPhone guy?

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Whiskeyjack
The need for more AoE is based on the idea to temporarily reduce defender's damage on retaliation kill to prevent armies of enemies from suiciding on your units. You will need AoE then.

Lowering terrain defences is in my opinion insufficient, many enemies have magical attacks (which do not have advantage of 0% defence) and have a relatively reasonable maximum. Resistances can go down indefinitely. The idea is that the attacker has time to gain momentum and hit really hard and aim precisely at a vulnerable spot because his opponent isn't moving around much.

@Zarkussell
It's dailin. He seems to be inactive, but he might react to PMs. Or get an Android phone. I bought one for 10% of the price of iPhone and it's working fine.

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Elder2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Elder2 »

Hello

I have been replaying the first chapter of LotI and I really like the change of AoE damage, now I find mass killing using Lethalia's faerie fire viable since it gives xp for the additional kills.

I think the Lethalia's faerie fire with cone damage reduction stops after being reduced by about 10-12 dmg, Im not sure, anyway, I don't really have a problem with the way how it works, since the 3rd chapter she have had like 26-8 faerie fire attack thanks to the 40% magical dmg increase ring, the only nuisance is the mele dmg reduction, my 21-4 axe gets reduced to I think like 6-4, the problem with that is obviously that I can't really kill on retal but its not a big deal.

Also, I have noticed the addition of the new The Atheist armour and it is just over the top, the bonuses it provides for its cost to make (its pretty cheap) may even be a bit too much, I feel like it was introduced specifically for Lethalia and Efraim from LotI since in combination with other pieces of armor (like eg scourge of all living which is also pretty crazy) it makes them almost impervious to any type of damage. In the last scenario of the 3rd chapter I remember that the dark dragon was the only thing that managed to bring my Lethalia down to half health since like the beginning of 3rd chapter and I started using my armour composition, I didn't have The Atheist back then and I had 15% arcane res, but now with 45% arcane res I don't think anything can damage me, I truly am the armoured skeptic now.
My Lethalia resistances now: http://imgur.com/a/PtaCh

Also I think Beelzebub rewards are not good enough, After killing him in the first encounter scenario (the scenario before the last scenario of the 3rd chapter) I just got a lot of casual drop items, I got 2x gold and the rest of the items were pretty crap and only like 2 were ok the best being I think the redshirt armour. I honestly thought I would get something more special, It took me some effort to kill Beelzebub and the spawning flies killed a few of my 200 g mages. I would be much happier if Beelzebub dropped eg a guaranteed 1x black pearl or a number of amethysts or sapphires, and maybe a random number of other gems, these would have a guaranteed use unlike the random items. The trader in the scenario before served me much better since I found the added possibility of buying gems extremely useful.

Im playing on hard by the way.

Zarkussell
Posts: 38
Joined: December 31st, 2015, 3:00 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Zarkussell »

In chapter 7 the campaign tip for "Den of Evil" says that when you kill a boss a new respawn point opens behind you. It's been more than 10 turns since I killed the first boss and I have had 0 units appear behind me. Was this just true in an old version? If so it allows you to be much more aggressive currently. I feel this is needed though; since I have been playing it relatively aggressively and I'm almost on turn 40 and haven't made any significant progress in over 25 turns. Is there some special way to avoid the incredible bottlenecks here?

Thank you all again

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

ElderofZion wrote:Im not sure, anyway, I don't really have a problem with the way how it works, since the 3rd chapter she have had like 26-8 faerie fire attack thanks to the 40% magical dmg increase ring, the only nuisance is the mele dmg reduction, my 21-4 axe gets reduced to I think like 6-4, the problem with that is obviously that I can't really kill on retal but its not a big deal.
Kill on retaliation is a problematically viable tactic. If what you say stays valid in later game, it could mean that I would be able to penalise mass retaliation kills without limiting the players' ability to cut through armies.
ElderofZion wrote:Also, I have noticed the addition of the new The Atheist armour and it is just over the top, the bonuses it provides for its cost to make (its pretty cheap) may even be a bit too much
Okay, gave it a slight nerf.
ElderofZion wrote:Also I think Beelzebub rewards are not good enough, After killing him in the first encounter scenario (the scenario before the last scenario of the 3rd chapter) I just got a lot of casual drop items, I got 2x gold and the rest of the items were pretty crap and only like 2 were ok the best being I think the redshirt armour.
Okay, now he's guaranteed to drop a high gem (emerald or higher, significantly improved probabilities, the chance to get a black pearl from him is 11%). He also drops more items.
Zarkusell wrote:In chapter 7 the campaign tip for "Den of Evil" says that when you kill a boss a new respawn point opens behind you.
This was not removed and the code looks very much valid. The spawn point should appear at 62, 57, spawning one unit per turn. Can you please verify it with using debug mode (activate with debug, disable fog with fog).

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Dugi wrote:[
ElderofZion wrote:Also I think Beelzebub rewards are not good enough, After killing him in the first encounter scenario (the scenario before the last scenario of the 3rd chapter) I just got a lot of casual drop items, I got 2x gold and the rest of the items were pretty crap and only like 2 were ok the best being I think the redshirt armour.
Okay, now he's guaranteed to drop a high gem (emerald or higher, significantly improved probabilities, the chance to get a black pearl from him is 11%). He also drops more items.
I forgot to report this, but I´m of an opposite mind to EoZ, I think the rewards are completely broken: The first time I summond Beelzebub I had no idea how strong he was and no chance to kill him with the few units in range and the few turns remaining. The second time though, I took a scenario with a very high turn limit and milked him for at least 100 turns worth of xp. Got from a lot of level 3 units and some just level 4 to a strong core of level 4s with 1000+ experience needed for next level up. Completely broke part one, from that point on I was crafting units in Inferno-mode and quite some of my units can solo any map (after a lot of additional grinding in Akulas dungeon a lot of them are at endlevel Inferno strength or beyond, with pretty much BiS gear and some very high tier crafting).
I think the problem lies in said mechanic though and not in the drops (which seemed fine to me) and I´d suggest giving a time factor: after 10 turns on the map Beelzebub gets bored and after 12 turns he departs again or something (or an enrage that starts linearly stacking damage and/or penetration on him after some turns).
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Zarkussell
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Zarkussell »

Is there a way to do debug on the iPhone?

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Elder2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Elder2 »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
ElderofZion wrote:Also I think Beelzebub rewards are not good enough, After killing him in the first encounter scenario (the scenario before the last scenario of the 3rd chapter) I just got a lot of casual drop items, I got 2x gold and the rest of the items were pretty crap and only like 2 were ok the best being I think the redshirt armour.
Okay, now he's guaranteed to drop a high gem (emerald or higher, significantly improved probabilities, the chance to get a black pearl from him is 11%). He also drops more items.

I forgot to report this, but I´m of an opposite mind to EoZ, I think the rewards are completely broken: The first time I summond Beelzebub I had no idea how strong he was and no chance to kill him with the few units in range and the few turns remaining. The second time though, I took a scenario with a very high turn limit and milked him for at least 100 turns worth of xp. Got from a lot of level 3 units and some just level 4 to a strong core of level 4s with 1000+ experience needed for next level up. Completely broke part one, from that point on I was crafting units in Inferno-mode and quite some of my units can solo any map (after a lot of additional grinding in Akulas dungeon a lot of them are at endlevel Inferno strength or beyond, with pretty much BiS gear and some very high tier crafting).
I think the problem lies in said mechanic though and not in the drops (which seemed fine to me) and I´d suggest giving a time factor: after 10 turns on the map Beelzebub gets bored and after 12 turns he departs again or something (or an enrage that starts linearly stacking damage and/or penetration on him after some turns).
Ok, the xp milking potential of Beelzebub is pretty crazy, and xp was the best thing I got from him, but it can be significantly reduced if summoning Beelzebub can be done only in specific scenarios with a low turn limit, I summoned Bellzebub during first encounter scenario and could milk him for just about 20 turns, when I killed him there I didn't see any more Bellzebub summoning stones in the next scenarios, I don't know yet if I will encounter him again at all. I think with that and one more thing - increased agression of Bellzebub (now he doesn't attack anything, it would be much harder to defeat him if he was attacking my units) I think it would be balanced to give him huge gem drops. And if that was not enough you can strenghten Beelzebub by giving him the undead trait, now poison shuts down his regeneration, and if I executed the fight with him perfectly (eg lethalia with poison on spiderweb and was dealing full possible damage to Beelzebub from all hexes) I could probably kill him in a few turns. And if that is not good enough then you can simply reduce his level, for now Beelzebub is more of a xp piniata and not a threat to your units, random spawning flies are much more dangerous and are actually the units doing the killing on your weak units, its pretty ridiculous.

That being said I don't think that xp on units in Lotl1 is that important since you lose your units in chapter 4 (though I think you can summon them back with the use of one spell, I haven't tried it though), with exception for xp for leaders which you want to be as OP as possible, I have been constantly slaughtering high lvl units with them as fast as possible. I think that gems are much more important than the xp for units since the gear you can craft is way more powerful than the gear you can drop or AMLA on your high lvl units. Now I am planning to get chaos armour for lethalia and efraim ASAP, I don't need more res and the increased dmg and skirmisher of chaos armour would make them crazy op, if I wanted then I probably could go past all the ai units and kill enemy leaders in a few turns if I wanted, but I wouldn't do that since I would waste a lot of xp.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

#Beelzebub
Yeah, it's a good idea to make him get bored after 10 turns or get stronger every turn. I thought that his experience gain and advancements make it hard to hold him for too long.

It is weird that he doesn't attack, he's supposed to be as aggressive as possible, aiming to deal maximum damage regardless of his own safety.

@Zarkusell
Not that I know of. The impossibility to use debug in combination with the impossibility to access save files makes anything on iPhone troublesome. If you have jailbroken your iPhone, save files may be accessible and possible to transfer to a PC.


Also, the github version of LotI should now work far better on 1.13 than before (before, the advancements were bugged), can somebody please try to play it and see if it's really as good as I think it is?

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Zarkussell wrote:Is there some special way to avoid the incredible bottlenecks here?
I guess you could try letting the enemies come to you. I just plowed my way through. :D
Spoiler:
Dugi wrote:The spawn point should appear at 62, 57, spawning one unit per turn.
Last time I've been there it worked like that.
Dugi wrote:using debug mode
Uh oh, when I used debug mode I had some crazy glitches throughout the rest of the campaign...
ElderofZion wrote:you lose your units in chapter 4 (though I think you can summon them back with the use of one spell, I haven't tried it though)
I always forget when you loose your troops and when you can re-summon them... :doh:

I learned the hard way to keep my recall list neat and tidy, because Dugi's code made it so I always had the units re-spawn I wanted the least. That still happens, but with a fairly short recall list and a few tries I can usually get the units I want.
ElderofZion wrote:I think that gems are much more important than the xp for units since the gear you can craft is way more powerful than the gear you can drop or AMLA on your high lvl units.
Maybe that depends on what you already have and happen to get. Some sets give nice abilities, but so do certain AMLAs/legacies...

As I haven't played with Beelzebub yet I can't comment on that.
I have a cunning plan.

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