Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these crafting recipes you are using or planning to use? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

The End of All that Is
6
9%
Gloombringer
3
5%
Soul Eclipse
8
12%
Guerilla
6
9%
Scaryface
8
12%
Thundering Revenge
2
3%
Marie Byrd
4
6%
Marrowrend
14
21%
Deathblade Inheritance
1
2%
Soul Render
14
21%
 
Total votes: 66

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

nuorc wrote:what do cursed arcane arrows do?
Arcane damage. They can do more damage if you spend really a lot of AMLAs in them.

#more early finish gold and traders
That would make the item acquisition significantly less random. Even a few items, if achievable always at some point, might affect the replayability, especially in early areas. I don't want to make it less predictable.

#And another orcish attack
When I was balancing it, the rules were different. It is possible that something became too hard. Should I make it easier?
nuorc wrote:I just saw Vritra's 'cold blood', which I found funny in a way:
What was funny about that? Frost doesn't do much damage to her, but cold environment means that her insufficient abilities of keeping her temperature high enough become a problem.
PS: The Snow Hunters are missing the sword attack miss sound.
They miss all attack sounds. Fixed.

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:Arcane damage. They can do more damage if you spend really a lot of AMLAs in them.
Ok, thx. Probably the right decision not to take it.
Dugi wrote:#more early finish gold and traders
Could trader spots be filled randomly?
Dugi wrote:#And another orcish attack
When I was balancing it, the rules were different. It is possible that something became too hard. Should I make it easier?
I for one think it could be a bit easier.
Dugi wrote:What was funny about that? Frost doesn't do much damage to her, but cold environment means that her insufficient abilities of keeping her temperature high enough become a problem.
I think it's funny that she is nigh inviolable by cold damage but suffers more from standing on a cold patch than anybody else. Ofc no-one else has to.
I have a cunning plan.

Delicius169
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Delicius169 »

Another orcish assault? You mean second scenario of 10 chapter?
Little cahnge would be nice, maybe making AI Orc less suicidal (so that they wouldnt die in retalion) and you would get time, or decrease of gold for oponent (it doesnt solve it though, the most dangerous are trait-regrowing and draining, one soldier with this combination can kill whole army)

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

nuorc wrote:Could trader spots be filled randomly?
Yes. But the prices would have to be set up somehow and I am not sure how to make it pick a suitable price. Also, it might be easy to find a scenario with a trader near the starting point and reroll him until he has the desired item, which might be a way to get a desired specific item, in a similarly annoying way than farming.
nuorc wrote:I think it's funny that she is nigh inviolable by cold damage but suffers more from standing on a cold patch than anybody else. Ofc no-one else has to.
If you suffer when your body temperature drops below 30°C (dizziness, clumsiness), sharp expositions to low temperature will hurt. If a cold blooded creature can survive temperatures down to 0°C, she will be able to recover from much larger cold blasts. But if you're exposed to the cold temperature for a prolonged period of time, you will keep heating yourself. The cold blooded one produces much less heat and will have trouble, although being quite fine even with much lower temperatures.
nuorc wrote:Little cahnge would be nice, maybe making AI Orc less suicidal (so that they wouldnt die in retalion) and you would get time, or decrease of gold for oponent (it doesnt solve it though, the most dangerous are trait-regrowing and draining, one soldier with this combination can kill whole army)
If I reduce their aggression in any way, they'll not attack, just swarm.

rytas
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by rytas »

Regarding whirlwind / explosive penalty

Situation:
i'm back to play some of LotI chapter 2 with a savegame from older version of LotI... Leveled Lethalia, and, lo and behold: my trusty faerie fire - mainstay of Lethalias ranged firepower - now unusable! 14 dam penalty for using explosive FF?? Great! Can i use non-explosive FF? NO?! BAD!

Possible resolutions:
- How about the ability to chose which - explosive or not - version to use (like with whirlwind / regular attack) ?
- I liked 'cone' better anyway;)

Side notes:
- I have not followed the discussion that led to this change, but pushing such a change on an already built out character is quite wrenching.
- as it is now the fixed penalty makes it very prohibitive to use the attack at all unless you have huge damages.
- it might be more fair to apply penalty only to the AOE attack itself? (i guess its technically challenging...)

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

@rytas: I'm also totally not a fan of those penalties. And especially when I don't have a choice not to add AoE to my attack, like with Lethalia in part two or legacies (like Fire Dragon).
I have a cunning plan.

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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

@rytas @nuorc: I agree. The only useful spell I have for Lethalia in part II is particle storm, because it's the only one that always gives me more than one dp. I think the only spell that does not aoe is entropy, and its rather weak, so if a load of demons attack, all the lethargy means that she's useless when it's my turn to attack.
rytas wrote:How about the ability to chose which - explosive or not - version to use (like with whirlwind / regular attack)?
This. It may make the attack menu twice as long, but I think the flexibility is worth it.

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Just out of curiosity: Has anyone here ever witnessed a devastating blow?

With all the fights I had the probability shouldn't be distinguishable from 1, but I have never had one...
I have a cunning plan.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

#AoE
I agree that Lethalia's Faerie Fire could have an explosive and a non-explosive version. But in most cases, a non-explosive version would be useless and filling up the attack list annoyingly.

The penalty wasn't there for quite long, but it was not giving experience for kills of other targets. Before, it was horribly overpowered. There was a general agreement about these exhaustion penalties. It is also in agreement with my usual use of these attacks, I usually used Lethalia to blast a large number of enemies, dealing as much damage as possible, then having other units swarm in, finish these enemies off, screening her.

#Devastating Blow
It removes a percentage of the enemy's life, and not a very large one. It's not very visible on most enemies, but it becomes useful when powerful enemies are attacked.

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:in most cases, a non-explosive version would be useless and filling up the attack list annoyingly.
Uh, I think a non-explosive version would be wonderful to simply attack an enemy; right now my 'best' attack is crappy because my unit is crippled after that (for a while).
Dugi wrote:#Devastating Blow
Ok, thx. I somehow thought it was noticeable...


Edit: Just out of curiosity: Has anyone here ever killed Argan in "An Old F(r)iend"? How?
I have a cunning plan.

rytas
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by rytas »

Dugi wrote:#AoE
I agree that Lethalia's Faerie Fire could have an explosive and a non-explosive version. But in most cases, a non-explosive version would be useless and filling up the attack list annoyingly.
Probably yes, but there are cases that are horribly broken after this change. Lethalias FF is one.
How about Lethalias advancement path with "Cleave in melee combat"? Oh, cool advancement, lets pick it... Oops, all my melee attacks have penalty now... GREAT.
Efraim in my game now can choose to attack in melee with cleave or whirlwind penalty. Not very exciting.

I feel all AOE AMLA's were created without penalties in mind and some 'Great enchancements' and now are no longer that great nor enhancements but more 'situational skills' that you want to use once in a while and not to be in a way all the time.

1. Make penalty amount depend on affected enemy count? No penalty if AOE skill/spell affects just one enemy? That would be a step in a right direction..
2. In some cases add non-AOE version of the skill, like Lethalias FF as its now forced on you?
3. Not sure how to handle cleave advancements, duplicate all the melee attacks to have cleave version? hmmm...
4. review AMLAs for more unhealthy cases?

knel
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by knel »

Hi all, I just finished part 2 (not chapter2). As already mentioned in an eralier post here, I got only problems in "and another orcish assault" in chapter 10. I won this scenario by not following the walktrough help (sorry but I got stomped when I tried.) I went north with my forces on the east side and did NOT join my meatshield allies (because they are no protection). That forced the enemy AI to split the troops so I could handle the number of demons and then I had to rush to my allies keep to help him because he feeds all his troops into a draining demon. It was close and also a bit of luck was in it. But I see no other option to kill demons with that low tier troops than reload until my technocrat can hit with his shot. I know thats not fine but this campaign is so long that such yolo-units wouldn´t survive for long if I play it without reload.

After this scenario the campaign went back in terms of difficulty from nightmare to medium, no more problems.

Some additional feedback: I expected a more epic end, sorry. Black souls that get slaugthered by my uber-units form Inferno was not so challenging, btw I was like OMG because I had finally enemies where I could use arcane attacks effectively (ancient lich OPness, etc).
If I lose my recall list or if I lose some heroes (or keep them) an announcement would be nice. I talk about chapters 3 and 8. At the end of 3 I got really frustrated to see my 3 new heroes taking all the nice items and huge amounts of XP just to dissapear and I even had to fight one, I got him so strong that I couldn´t duel him in the scenario where I was forced to so I had to reload and take his items away. At the end of chapter 8 an info would be nice that it would be a good idea to give the best items to the children for an easier chapter 10 start.
At last, some AMLA advancement for the main heroes are still bugged, (entropy attacks, lethalia lich staff_attacks and maybe something else) is it intended that letahlias staff has drain as lich and leech as god? Finally the AOE attacks, I don´t like them because of the exhaustion-debuff. All those cool spells feel so wasted and forced me into shadowwave/gossamer/entropy use (ok these attacks provide also self-sustain against hordes of attackers for soloing with heroes.) And I really hate to spec mandatory the cleave when I want to spec weapon with my gods, it Forces me to use the melee atack only for defence to avoid the exhaustion penalty, I want to skill weapon advancement without taking cleave.

Last question: is the huge AI differnece between part 1 and 2 intended? In 1 it seems the most times really passive only attacking if there is a chance for a kill or if the attacker will survive resulting in just swarming me, in part 2 the hordes just suicide into some almost invicible units ending the turn with 90%+ HP. I prefered the suicidial AI more because it´s way more boring if my enemies aren´t even trying to hurt me and sometimes the mass suicide ends in a succesfull attack.

Played on hard btw.

Apart from the mentioned points I really liked the gameplay of the campaign and I spent maybe more hours with this campaign only than with some other games I bought for money.

So thank you for your efforts and I hope the campaign gets the fixes/balance changes that are still to be done. Then I would even replay the whole story.

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

rytas wrote:Not very exciting.
You're just having the wrong attitude, it actually adds to the excitement. :P
rytas wrote:I feel all AOE AMLA's were created without penalties in mind and some 'Great enchancements' and now are no longer that great nor enhancements but more 'situational skills' that you want to use once in a while and not to be in a way all the time.
I share that feeling and agree with pretty much everything in your post.

@Dugi: what do you think about an option to turn AoE off, like disabling attacks for retaliation?
I have a cunning plan.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

rytas wrote:I feel all AOE AMLA's were created without penalties in mind and some 'Great enchancements' and now are no longer that great nor enhancements but more 'situational skills' that you want to use once in a while and not to be in a way all the time.
All AoE AMLAs were created without the current penalties in mind. However, as I've written recently, the penalties used to be different, giving no exp for kills, so as a result, many people were not using these attacks.

What you may not realise, these penalties can be quite well mitigated using the wrath ability (or having someone with hate speech nearby). As long as there are many attacks, the penalty is marginalised. If there are few of them, some recharging attack might be necessary to switch to.
knel wrote:I expected a more epic end, sorry. Black souls that get slaugthered by my uber-units form Inferno was not so challenging, btw I was like OMG because I had finally enemies where I could use arcane attacks effectively (ancient lich OPness, etc).
I have doubled their quantity not long ago. I did not want to put too many of them there, but from your feedback, it appears that I might make them much stronger.
knel wrote:If I lose my recall list or if I lose some heroes (or keep them) an announcement would be nice. I talk about chapters 3 and 8. At the end of 3 I got really frustrated to see my 3 new heroes taking all the nice items and huge amounts of XP just to dissapear and I even had to fight one, I got him so strong that I couldn´t duel him in the scenario where I was forced to so I had to reload and take his items away.
You were going to get them back in chapter 5, the parts without them were not so item demanding.
knel wrote:All those cool spells feel so wasted and forced me into shadowwave/gossamer/entropy use (ok these attacks provide also self-sustain against hordes of attackers for soloing with heroes.)
Use wrath, as I wrote above. If there's something that would make soloing better, be sure I'll not do it.
knel wrote:Last question: is the huge AI differnece between part 1 and 2 intended?
Yes.
nuorc wrote:what do you think about an option to turn AoE off, like disabling attacks for retaliation?
Please review this in the light of what I've written in this post.

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:Please review this in the light of what I've written in this post.
I don't have any unit with wrath, nor hate speech. I still hate the penalties and that I don't have a choice if I want an attack to be explosive or not. I'd still take any option to get rid of it.
I have a cunning plan.

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