Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
10
16%
Reaper
5
8%
Scythemaster
4
6%
Shadowalker
3
5%
Shadow Prince
7
11%
Siege Troll
3
5%
Sky Goblin
1
2%
Snow Hunter
7
11%
Soul Shooter
2
3%
Swordmaster
12
19%
Troll Boulderlobber
0
No votes
Warlock
5
8%
Werewolf Rider
2
3%
Zombie Rider
1
2%
 
Total votes: 62

Pags
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Pags »

It seems that the 0 hp bug is caused by when Lethalia should have killed a 2nd tier (non-adjacent) enemy with AoE fairy fire. I'm not getting the lua error onscreen with the current version, but I'm guessing it's just not printing those out any more due to a DEBUG constant?
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:Plant harvesting is not necessary, it's mainly for getting some extra items. I don't think that it's bad that it's more limited. But that Grpyhon Rider could be made a bit slower. Any suggestions what could be reduced?
Personally, I felt like I had to harvest those plants - for all reasons imaginable.

'Bout the Gryph: you can also increase its ludicrous speed for example by giving it a +2 MP sword before max-leveling...
I have a cunning plan.
nachkar
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nachkar »

Whiskeyjack wrote: But honestly I don´t see the problem, as a unit solely going for movement speed would at max make it possible to "cheat" your way through the last chapter 9 scenario (not sure if this would work, chokepoints and stuff...) but as explained above would not really serve any other use (revealing the map I guess, but your normal units are fast enough to do that in sufficient time anyway).

At this point in time I try to kill every last enemy on the map because I´m rather playing for the potential I can unfold in some units than to actually beat the campaign - if that was my biggest goal I´d play hard instead of medium for the bigger challenge. :D
Same opinion. It's strength/movement-focus is most valuable in the lower difficulties. If a player in the highest diff wants to skip ahead and not farm... well so be it, either he'll run into trouble later on OR he's already farmed beyond crazy :roll: :mrgreen:
Xellos
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xellos »

Dugi:
Still going solo with axe is really difficult(probably impossible), because (on hard difficulty) there are no good axes except crafted (dugi's wrath (really expensive, almost impossible to get) and soul render - also expensive - you need luck to craft it before inferno). There is also morrowrend.
yes i can agree that fowleri chopper is nice (if you go with staves -wrath for staves attacks and spells is nice, but attacking with axes -5% to damage?), axe of perun is good in early game but not against demons (even if you change damage - you still don't have good sustain (no leech for attack)).
I need time but staff seems stronger (less damage per hit but focused more hits and leech).
Of course there is maybe good axe and i don't know about it - it's possible.
Efraim is easy because with weapons you can attack with cleave, then redeem in next turn, then use knives, then melee attack with cleave ... This rotation of attacks is really good. In early game you can easily farm with it and you lose only 1 or 2 points of damage from lethargy. In late you have a lot of attacks and good sustain. (leech +suck in melee and suck in ranged)
Lethalia can't go that route. In early game going for weapons means that your attacks have cleave and your ranged attacks are weak (or give you more lethargy).
So she is better with normal amlas to improve weapons. But of course 11 3 axe is incredible weak compared to Efraim sword 14 4 leech.
Lethalia with axe is simply weaker than Efraim with weapons. So she can go with staves or spells right now.
Well even when going as caster (strong spells and weak melee it's better to go with staff (sustain plus possibility of using slow with focused).
So i don't think that changing damage can fix it.


The Gryphon Rider:
Same as others.
You can pick almost any unit and pick items and create incredibly fast unit
6 base speed
+3 normal amlas
+3 legacy of free
+1 amulet
+1 cloak
+3 boots
+2 weapon1 (crafted querilla)
+2 weapon2 (crafted querilla)
+2 gauntlet (crafted lightning agility)
+2 helmet (crafted lightning agility)
+2 armor (crafted lightning agility)
27 speed and hit an run
Good? I don't think so.

EDIT:
forgot about taxes - thanks matsjoyce
Added some info for Dugi

EDIT2:
Thornsword - no image. When choosing attack there is no image for thorn sword. Only "image not found"
Last edited by Xellos on January 25th, 2016, 11:38 am, edited 5 times in total.
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matsjoyce
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce »

With Taxes you can get +3 boot (speedwise, they are the most awesome boots ever).
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

matsjoyce wrote:With Taxes you can get +3 boot (speedwise, they are the most awesome boots ever).
taxcollector though? I have not yet used them on any unit, as I just don´t think losing gold over this is worth it (if I ever decide that I don´t want to embiggen my army or recruit new units I´ll try it out I guess.) How high is the gold loss/the chance to lose gold? When does it activate, only for attacking? Guess I´ll just look this up later on.
Xellos wrote:Good? I don't think so.
So you think those fast-but-oneshotable no-damage-units are a problem? If so, why?
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
Xellos
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xellos »

Whiskeyjack:
I said : same as others.
i agree that super fast units are weak and we don't need nerf them.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

#Movement
I have slightly reduced his potential, but it's noting particularly significant. Huge movement speed causes some trouble with scenario code, because in some places, I have to assume that you won't be crazily fast.

#Efraim vs Lethalia
In my development version, I have weakened the weapons advancement so that Efraim gets less and Lethalia's axe is not changed. I wonder how will this work.

@Pags
Having debug enabled does not add any problem reports. It just allows you to use a few additional commands and activates some hidden WML parts (there are none in this campaign, I have no idea where they are). I wrote that I have fixed the lua error problem.
If the 0 hp monster came out of explosive damage, the only possible explanation I can think of is rounding. I have made a change to prevent rounding from causing this, since you don't have a save file where I could replicate it, my only option is to hope that my guess was right.
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Inky
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Inky »

I also just encountered a 0 HP unit bug (latest campaign version) - it happened whenever I killed an enemy using a parrying attack.
Xellos
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xellos »

Dugi:
On my unit information first redeem bonus is not shown. I have Redeem (3) and in unit information i can see only health. (Efraim) (I picked Improved Weapons)
Similar Lethalia - Redeem (2) and nothing in unit information about Improved Magic.
They work during advancement, so it is not very important.
Second and next redeem bonuses are in unit information.

There is one set of attacks with the same name (fire breath) but advancements from one doesn't affect other.
Dragon Rider has Fire Breath. Fire Dragon Legacy give you Fire Breath. Dragon Rider advancements doesn't affect fire breath from Fire Dragon Legacy.
I don't know if this is intended or not.
Usually if name of the attack is the same then it works (fireball plus book of fireballs or chill wave and shadow wave and necromancers book)
If they should not stacks then please change names (Dragon Breath and Fire Breath for example) or change so they could stack. ;)
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Inky wrote:I also just encountered a 0 HP unit bug (latest campaign version) - it happened whenever I killed an enemy using a parrying attack.
I have found a little bug there, but I doubt that it's caused by it. It might be related to its bad interaction with some weapon specials, can you please upload a save file where it can be replicated?
Xellos wrote:On my unit information first redeem bonus is not shown. I have Redeem (3) and in unit information i can see only health. (Efraim) (I picked Improved Weapons)
Similar Lethalia - Redeem (2) and nothing in unit information about Improved Magic.
I suspect what might be the cause. Can you please upload a save file where it can be visible?
Xellos wrote:There is one set of attacks with the same name (fire breath) but advancements from one doesn't affect other.
This is intentional. If you don't like it, I might change it.

Sorry for the delay, I wanted to finish some work and it was too late when I finished.
Xellos
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xellos »

Dugi:
In my previous post i posted save with this problem. If for some reason it's impossible to use autosave i will upload other save right now.
EDIT:
more information
Right now i can see all of my redeems (Lethalia) but i still missing first (Efraim)
sending next save
This is intentional.
Even if they will stacks there should be no problems with balance. Both of these attacks have the same base damage and number attacks. Attack from Fire Dragon Legacy has also marksman and cone (and can buy explosive). I think that possibility to buy few more +1 damage is not broken. And Dragon Rider with Fire Dragon Legacy has terrible cold resistance (very hard to make it good because it is harder to get cold than fire or arcane resistances).
But as i said changing the name is also good because i think that even with stacking this unit is not very good(i think that there are better legacies for Dragon Rider). It is more about cleaning the rules. :) I am a neat person. :D
Sorry for the delay, I wanted to finish some work and it was too late when I finished.
NO problem. Thanks for your good work. :)

Should i report differences in wording?
for example
sometimes items give
+1 base attack
sometimes
+1 to base attacks
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Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

That fire res is easiest to get I agree, I feel arcane is as hard as cold (was harder before).

I agree to let the legacy stack for Dragon Rider, I also don´t think it would be broken and even just for thematic reasons it would make sense to let him have this "exploit". Dragon Rider is one of the premiere units for Heart of Ice set and can thus get decent resistances in both categories though I´m not sure if this would still be as valid if you have FDL on him as well.
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Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
Xellos
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xellos »

Whiskeyjack:
That fire res is easiest to get I agree, I feel arcane is as hard as cold (was harder before).
Maybe. I really like Purity and Atheist. They give nice arcane res and are quite cheap in part2. And i find a lot of paranoia cloaks. ;)
I wouldn´t mind having the Dragon Riders breath AMLAs affect all kinds of Dragon Legacies... I can understand that this would be a little too strong though
Why It would be too strong?
Dragon Rider breath AMLAs are weak (as for attack without weapon) and his breath has the same base damage as Fire and Ice breaths from legacies.

In Fire / Ice breaths case:
Dragon Rider AMLAs add only 1 more attack (2 amlas) and few +1 AMLA for breath from legacy- nothing special (there are a lot of better AMLAs in game (or exactly the same but with some weapon)
Legacy AMLas add some attacks an damage to normal breath but in reality - it only means that you could attack with normal legacy breath or legacy breath without special rules (marksman/slow)
Of course unless you buy exlosive from legacy when dragon breath will be simply weaker than legacy breath.

An about dark dragon breath - right now its only 9 4 drain breath. legacy AMLA doesn't improve dragon breath. Yes you can improve dark dragon breath - but still only +1 damage per AMLAs to attack without weapon.
I think that after last changes to dark breath legacy it is completely balanced. Before it would be quite bad probably. ;)
moony
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by moony »

Chapter one, scenario "Forgotten Realms" (? i think so, in german its "Vergangene Reiche"), latest version, i cannot pick p any item/gem/gold neither with letahlia nor with efraim.
also, did i miss some special ability of efraim? it seems as if his attacks go weaker and weaker every turn until it regenerates itself again, i dont know how it works... he is not slown down, there was no enemy with a special ability or special weapon he carries that could affect his damage. as preserved lich, having a 3-3 damage with his sword against a normal orc that sounds wrong to me...
Last edited by moony on January 27th, 2016, 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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