Legend of the Invincibles

[Dugi]

Guys, deal with it, I'll be most likely gone for two weeks, I'll reply to everything then. I would be glad if somebody who knows more replied to those who know less.

[Hex]

That information is not worth using spoiler tag :p

Well perhaps you could just tell me what those abilities do, so I don't have to hunt to find a file, then hunt through that file and its codes and through all sorts of other abilities I don't need to see, just to find those.

[Hex]

Also crow, a number of the traits that I asked about aren't in that file.

I had a thought about Hit and run, you could remove that ability and give that item Quick strike (movement isn't lost when attacking) and Skirmish instead. It's nearly the same thing, but this way you can't get double movement out of it. Skirmish has its own benefits but it fits with guerrilla fighting.

[xuanquang]

@Dugi:
I suddenly remember a scenario which is quite hard and need making easily in chapter 1. That is when main characters fight to ice skeletons. The terrain is difficult to move. Enemies with frozen aura make anything worse. Their leader summons creeps every turns that I took many turns to touch him. Game objective is to kill all ice monsters, but there are some smart skeletons keeping themselves at far corners of the map. With non-experience players who build an army mostly with bow and sword, no chance to win ( in the turn limit).
I think that's a extremely hard scenario for chapter 1, which is to introduce the game.
Okay, have a nice 2-week off.
@Hex:

This is a game, for fun, not math class.

In fact, BfW is the game that requires much more brain than basic calculations. For your question, a simple example: your basic attack is 4, the item adds 30% more, so 4 * 30% = 1.2, so you got 1 more attack.

Anyway, what's so bad about being able to get a full refund on crafted items in the turn they are made?

Have you ever had up to hundreds of obsidians, topazes and opals? I recycle them by crafting cheap items, then immediately smash to get random gems. Follow your idea, I have to craft in one turn, and smash in another turn. After smashing,these gems increase again, and I have to repeat my work in the following turns.
In addition, as Raijer said, you must know what you want to craft. If you unfortunately waste a black pearl, reload.

[Turuk]

But for the record, I am not nit-picking and resent that accusation.

I do apologize for adding too much emphasis on certain things after I got frustrated, feeling like I was getting glib replies that didn't seem to give full consideration. Too many question marks and exclamation marks that perhaps made you upset.

There are more examples prior to this, but in general your tone is demanding and confrontational. Pay attention to Posting Guideline #1B for future posts in this thread or you will receive a short break from posting in it. No one needs to be dictated to on how to make their own content.

I highlighted the bolded part because you apologize in part for your behavior and then continue to repeat:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks captain obvious, what would I ever do without you! Why are you still being so gd damn rude! Even when you said you didn't find that post to be nitpicking, you still treat me so rudely. Plus that reply had almost nothing at all to do with what it was replying to.

Now you are talking about realism again. Come on, give me a break, you only seem to care about realism when it is convenient to your argument. (and fretting about whether a attack sprite looks right for its type is fretting about realism) And as it is now has serious issues with realism like I already mentioned, and your solution of having them be injured does not address that realism issue like I pointed out.

Good job demonstrating that you didn't properly read my suggestion.

This is your one and only warning.

[Hex]

Anyway, what's so bad about being able to get a full refund on crafted items in the turn they are made?

Have you ever had up to hundreds of obsidians, topazes and opals? I recycle them by crafting cheap items, then immediately smash to get random gems. Follow your idea, I have to craft in one turn, and smash in another turn. After smashing,these gems increase again, and I have to repeat my work in the following turns.

If you are saying you want a way to convert cheap and common gems into rare ones, how about that be implemented directly in some way, rather then such a convoluted and hassle filled method. Like map traders that will trade one type for another at less then optimal efficiency. And/or a choice to recycle bunches of material for random other material. And/or some other method. Either way, you would be able to do a bunch at once saving you time and hassle. And then there would be no reason to oppose this idea.

[xuanquang]

@Hex: why didn't you see that your ideas ( not only this one) have so many problems that we didn't want to bring them all out, and patiently keep them in our mind? For this situation, I will write out all things those are critical disadvantages.
1. Like I said before, need more complex actions to recycle basic gems.
2. It also requires more complex code and performance ( like store which items crafted in per turn in memory, load it every time you refund an item or reload the game).
3. Someone who have enough rare gems will cheat game by crafting strong items for an unit, attacking with that unit, then refunding, crafting for others, and so on.

And your solution correct the first disadvantage, but cause more problems:
1. It somehow makes the game easier when players have a stable way to get rare gems. Also, the aleatory element is reduced,causing the game more boring.
2. In the case using a map traders, players depend on NPC and become passive. Any other alternative idea requires new code, while the game already has its way to do this.

That's all things I feel not good about your above idea. Hope that you will have new and quite good thoughts for the topic.

[Hex]

@Hex: why didn't you see that your ideas ( not only this one) have so many problems that we didn't want to bring them all out, and patiently keep them in our mind?

I do not understand much of that, but I do not like its tone. If you see issues with a suggestion, you should just say them. Not keep them in your mind and look down on me without any discussion.

1. Like I said before, need more complex actions to recycle basic gems.

I already refuted this. Having to convert lesser gems into greater ones by repeatedly making and breaking items is a absurd time consuming hassle that players should not be reduced to. So if it breaks your using that absurd time consuming hassle method, that is fine, we should replace it anyway! I said all this, I am angry that you repeat yourself as though I did not say anything.

3. Someone who have enough rare gems will cheat game by crafting strong items for an unit, attacking with that unit, then refunding, crafting for others, and so on.

Many mechanisms can be exploited if you have the will to spend the time, like making items only to break them in a attempt to get a rarer gem could be called exploiting the game mechanisms. Dugi already said the recycle option exists to deal with excess inventory causing game problems, he did not say it exists to convert common gems into rare gems.

For that matter, I can exploit movement items(items that reduce movement cost on terrain) in first two turns by equipping it on all units before I move them then unequipping them after moving them since you can freely call items from inventory for the first two turns, even when not on castle. I don't do that because it would be a major hassle, and because I'd only be cheating myself with unintended advantage that ruins the difficulty.

For that matter, I can reload every bit of the game I don't like till I get a result I want, if I so feel like it.

Besides, there is a simple solution that would prevent such exploit, see next reply.

2. It also requires more complex code and performance ( like store which items crafted in per turn in memory, load it every time you refund an item or reload the game).

I can't speak to all of this. But all that is not necessary. Simply have it last in that instance, till a unit acts or turn is ended. Don't bother having it put into saves, the full refund need not be preserved in saves, nothing about its purpose requires such a thing.

BTW, did you know that you can not undo a move if you check a units items?

It somehow makes the game easier when players have a stable way to get rare gems. Also, the aleatory element is reduced,causing the game more boring.
In the case using a map traders, players depend on NPC and become passive. Any other alternative idea requires new code, while the game already has its way to do this.

I told you already in last post, we could have a mechanism that allows for recycling common gems directly with chance. Though I don't see a need for a element of chance here. Point is, there is many ways we could do this, all would be better then tedious unintended exploit.

You complain that my suggestion would mess up your tedious exploit of game mechanisms in a way they were not meant to be exploited.

I say that your tedious game exploit should not be. It should be made official and easy, not tedious and grinding. Or perhaps you should give up on your exploit, and live with the "aleatory/chance element" of finding your rare gems on the ground and just recycling excess equipment you didn't specifically make just to recycle, and learn to live with your excess of common gems.

[Turuk]

xuanquang and Hex.

While an improvement, if discussions over mechanics cannot be held in this thread in a civil manner then take it to PMs.

[Hex]

We are discussing it civilly. (well I did take exception to xuanquang saying there was no point in discussing it, or whatever he said, and of him ignoring my words, but just those two bits of incivility of xuanquang and none from me) And there would be no point in discussing it over PM. That would only be of use if one of us were Dugi, since Dugi has final say and would be the one who would do it.

[xuanquang]

@Hex:
Sorry, the problem is me with my bad English that sometimes cause misunderstanding. I mean, your ideas which is said that unsuitable, you patiently with them and give solutions, but they also have more things to say. So, discussing thoroughly about them will take a lot of time and make the topic lose its common air.
Before you show up a new thing, you should consider if it is really necessary, what it is used for, and what things it will cause. With the idea refunding, I see that it is unnecessary. A crafting accident can be solved by reloading the game. More, this problem comes from player, so player, not the game, have to deal with it.
As the recycling issue, the fact is as you said, there is no game function specially dealing with this. But I've learnt how to do myself with what the game has. So, I didn't come here and ask for something like convert-gem function. You said this way wasted time. In my opinion, this makes you get used to game interface, then you will not have mistakes like wrong crafting.
Looking at your last idea, replacing "hit and run" by quick "strike", compare to others, it is much better and acceptable. It solves an unreal fact that an unit can move 28 hexes in a turn.
So, really hope that you will have quite good thought like you did.

[Hex]

I told you why I want this refund function, and to reverse accidents is the least of its purpose. Mainly so one can try out different items on different units, even different combinations of items, without having to reload over and over. Obvious the difficulty in coding shouldn't exceed the value of adding this, but only those who know how difficult it would be to add this should speak on that.

You might not have come here asking for a convert gem function, but it still sounds like its worth having. That or perhaps no gem when recycling, that the function just exists to reduce inventory.

replacing "hit and run" by "quick strike",

Quick strike and skirmisher, so it can be a true guerrilla strike.

Some bug report updates.

Some suck health is working, not sure why or when.

Defense from equipment does scale according to existing defense, like resistance does. I remember you saying it wasn't suppose to work like this.

Resistance from upgrade seems to work correctly. Defense from upgrade doesn't scale, but does act funny. It's all over the place. At one point I gave a unit a upgrade that was suppose to be 5 defense, but it was 2 -3 defense all over the place, with no apparent pattern (and no items that gave defense equipped) I gave Lethalia a upgrade that was suppose to give 1 move and 1 defense on everything. It gave 1 defense bonus on most things, but for some reason no defense bonus on mountains. Maybe its like how flying shoes and spiritual presence don't help with mountains for some reason, that mountains were missed.

Some units have unnecessarily redundant skills. Like Blashlyg the frost deathlord of Twlight scenario, has both freezing aura and northfrost aura. Former slows everything down within 1 space, the latter, 2. But you can only slow something once.

Speaking of Twilight scenario. I didn't have alot of problem with speed with it because I focused on getting pixie elves that can fly over everything. But other players could struggle. You can't easily use ghosts since the shooters use a arcane attack. So like a couple items should be given to players for the escape from lava prison map, perhaps some snow movement shoes named snow shoes (just helps with snow movement, nothing else) should be given to players for this map. Not alot, but at least maybe a couple.

That and Garcyn dies easily. I've had him die on turn 10. He'll run out onto the ice and attack a yeti, and of course be killed on enemies turn. Perhaps he could be made to stay on his throne.

Oh one more thing about Twilight, there is a small error in the dialogue. At first you say you have never heard of the necromancers to the south, then you say your death knight master has a grudge against them and that was his price. Well if your suppose to defeat them, then you would have heard of them.

[Hex]

I keep on asking this stuff

How does Radiating insanity and Warlords rule, work? And is "Anger" a limited berserk where you attack 3 times instead of 30? How does Retribution work?

When win a map, does it just collect the item of the last defeated boss? Or does it collect up all items on the map? How about crafting material on the map?

And a new question:

With the shadow empire scenario, you get generals as recallable units if you defeat zorox without killing them? How about the necromancers, they join you? Or is all that just story dialogue, none of them actually join you?

[Dikkin]

@Hex
Radiating insanity : All nearby allies fight with a bloodlust equal to the dwarvish berserk.
Warlords rule : All nearby allies get melee charge.
Anger : When used offensively, this attack doubles the attacks done by both attacker and defender.
Retribution : When this unit is hit, an amount of fire damage equal to a quarter of the damage dealt hurts the attacker.

I took it from "abilities.cfg", you can do it by yourself. You can read in FAQ that you get only what dropped by boss, maybe you get all that was on his hex, but certainly not all things on the map. You can check it by yourself, instead of waiting for an answer here.

[lastjuan]

[...]

And a new question:

With the shadow empire scenario, you get generals as recallable units if you defeat zorox without killing them? How about the necromancers, they join you? Or is all that just story dialogue, none of them actually join you?

Neither one join you. If you want units with leadership (apart from the heroes) your best option is the line Elvish Captain/Marshall/..., if you had the opportunity to upgrade them.