Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
51
21%
Reaper
28
12%
Scythemaster
20
8%
Shadowalker
17
7%
Shadow Prince
19
8%
Siege Troll
11
5%
Sky Goblin
4
2%
Snow Hunter
20
8%
Soul Shooter
5
2%
Swordmaster
28
12%
Troll Boulderlobber
2
1%
Warlock
24
10%
Werewolf Rider
5
2%
Zombie Rider
7
3%
 
Total votes: 241

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

I never included undead to my 'keeper' units, only used them when I had to. I always thought they were meh, partly because they don't have a legacy. But I haven't played LotI in a while, so I don't know how much has changed.
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Spirit_of_Currents
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

1. Efraim de Ceise’s resistance potion didn’t disappear when he gained a level. After a few AMLAs the extra resistances were gone however.

2. My unit had a bow with pierce weapon special but his damage didn’t go down when he used it.

3. I killed a unit and won the scenario. He dropped a gem but it went to item storage.

4. I had a spearman next to a knight of magic and an elvish captain. Antisocial didn’t do anything.

5. The campaign help FAQ doesn’t tell what are the maximum resistances my units can get.

6. I suggest you can somehow see and remove items from units in recall list without recalling them.
There are very much electrical currents in my brain.
dwarftough
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

Spirit_of_Currents wrote: October 8th, 2021, 6:13 am 1. Efraim de Ceise’s resistance potion didn’t disappear when he gained a level. After a few AMLAs the extra resistances were gone however.
Probably he gained a level on an enemy turn, in this case yes, potions don't disappear
Spirit_of_Currents wrote: October 8th, 2021, 6:13 am 2. My unit had a bow with pierce weapon special but his damage didn’t go down when he used it.
Would be great to see a save with this, doesn't this unit have wrath for example?

Spirit_of_Currents wrote: October 8th, 2021, 6:13 am 3. I killed a unit and won the scenario. He dropped a gem but it went to item storage.
That was a bug but I think in the version that would be fixed

Spirit_of_Currents wrote: October 8th, 2021, 6:13 am 4. I had a spearman next to a knight of magic and an elvish captain. Antisocial didn’t do anything.
Yeah, antisocial is negative non-cumulative leadership, and the largest leadership in the area beats it, obviously
Spirit_of_Currents wrote: October 8th, 2021, 6:13 am 6. I suggest you can somehow see and remove items from units in recall list without recalling them.
You can, in "Items" menu there is a button "Item in the recall list" or something like that
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white_haired_uncle
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dwarftough wrote: October 8th, 2021, 9:46 am
Spirit_of_Currents wrote: October 8th, 2021, 6:13 am 3. I killed a unit and won the scenario. He dropped a gem but it went to item storage.
That was a bug but I think in the version that would be fixed
It's still a bug in the latest beta for 1.14. Just saw it in the last couple weeks.

I'm pretty sure it was still there in the beta for 1.15 as of several weeks ago (when I was playing an army of Snow Hunters), but I'm not completely sure on this one.

Easy workaround, though, just drop the gem to the ground from item storage, then have the same unit "Pick up items on the ground".

On an unrelated note, it'd be nice to have an option to skip the tutorial.
dwarftough
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

Beta wasn't updated since June 15, in the master branch on GitHub that gem in the storage bug should be fixed
Co-founder and current maintainer of IsarFoundation, Afterlife Rated and overall Wesnoth Autohost Project
Developer and maintainer of my fork of World Conquest, Invincibles Conquest II
Spirit_of_Currents
Posts: 160
Joined: April 26th, 2014, 4:44 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

Level 2 melee-only skeletons need much more exp to level up than units.wesnoth.org says.

Why no teeth items?

Edit: you could cover your teeth with metal.

Edit too: I was playing chapter one and was surprised when my twinkling sword and elvish marshal seemed to have disappeared even though I have Non-Fatal Wounds Mod enabled. I guess it’s because he, wielding the twinkling sword, died in ”The Poison” scenario and the campaign handles recall lists unusually after killing the enemy leader in that scenario.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

No teeth items is intentional. They are supposed to have better AMLAs than "weapon" attacks. That isn't true for Skellie though.
Spirit_of_Currents
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

In my opinion mayhem, trickery etc. are too powerful. I think their effect should decrease by one point every tenth turn.

I don’t like how whirlwind, explosive etc. work. I think they should do initially less damage instead of reducing damage of all attacks.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

I might agree that Doom (reduce resistance) is too powerful, but absolutely not Mayhem (reduce damage). The only enemies where I want to use Mayhem are so powerful that knocking off a few points of damage is not a big deal.

Edit: Maybe I didn't answer in proper context. I think perhaps Doom is too powerful against enemies (demon bosses get much easier), but I don't use Trickery a lot and I basically never use Mayhem.
However, give your post, were you referring to those abilities being used against you? I don't think I have ever seen an enemy with one of those abilities attack me.


I don't like how AoE attacks reduce damage via Lethargy. To me that makes them rarely worth using. Except in very specific cases, the general loss of damage from lethargy, which will apply on enemy turn, is bigger than I gain from AoE. I've altered the code I play to create an attack timeout for big AoE attacks instead of lethargy, so they can only be used every other turn. But I'm not entirely happy with that either.
Last edited by dabber on October 19th, 2021, 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
white_haired_uncle
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dabber wrote: October 18th, 2021, 8:25 pm I don't like how AoE attacks reduce damage via Lethargy. To me that makes them rarely worth using. Except in very specific cases, the general loss of damage from lethargy, which will apply on enemy turn, is bigger than I gain from AoE. I've altered the code I play to create an attack timeout for big AoE attacks instead of lethargy, so they can only be used every other turn. But I'm not entirely happy with that either.
I think the lethargy penalty should be increased if anything (and of course enabled on Lethalia's attack). They should be rarely used, IMO.

I also wish I had a better understanding of how secondary damage/effects work with AoE. For example, at one time plague would only affect the first unit killed (or the primary target?), but slow or poison would affect all units when using whirlwind (don't quote me on the exact details, I don't remember them, the point is they weren't consistent and may still not be). And what about wrath, does it count for every hit on every unit, and does it combine with or is it replaced by lethargy? Drains/leeches/absorb/suck? Pierce (if even possible)?

I think the rules might also be different for Efraim. His whirlwind attack seems to always wear him out substantially even with wrath, while a scythemaster with whirlwind and wrath never seems to lose much if any damage.
Spirit_of_Currents
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

I used a calculator. Now I think it would be suitable that: If a weapon special currently gives lethargy two, it in future does 80% damage. If a weapon special currently gives lethargy four, it in future does 0.8^2=64% damage. If a weapon special currently gives lethargy six, it in future does 0.8^3=52% damage. And so on.
dabber wrote: October 18th, 2021, 8:25 pm However, give your post, were you referring to those abilities being used against you? I don't think I have ever seen an enemy with one of those abilities attack me.
An enemy unit moved and, with trickery, attacked my unit. Maybe it was because the unit of mine had so little HP. I'm using Non-Fatal Wounds modification but it doesn't protect from trickery, I guess.

I'm playing "gotta catch em all". It means I aim to get every possible max-level unit.
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white_haired_uncle
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dabber wrote: October 18th, 2021, 8:25 pm I might agree that Doom (reduce resistance) is too powerful, but absolutely not Mayhem (reduce damage). The only enemies where I want to use Mayhem are so powerful that knocking off a few points of damage is not a big deal.

Edit: Maybe I didn't answer in proper context. I think perhaps Doom is too powerful against enemies (demon bosses get much easier), but I don't use Trickery a lot and I basically never use Mayhem.
However, give your post, were you referring to those abilities being used against you? I don't think I have ever seen an enemy with one of those abilities attack me.
I love trickery. It's not for every fight, but when it fits it makes a huge difference. I had a Snow Hunter recently that got lesser berserk combined with trickery (and cleave, just for laughs). 30+ attacks per turn, and every one that hits makes the next one more likely. It's also a spectacular tool for softening up enemies to level up junior units quickly.
Spoiler:


Doom would be great, but I've never seen it where it applied to an attack with more than one hit per turn. I'd abuse it just like (okay, in combination with and just after) trickery if I could get several hits in.

Mayhem sounds like it'd be nice in a situation where you have lots of hits (maybe for a berserker?), but if I already have trickery it's kind of unnecessary. I should look at adding it to my playbook though.
Spirit_of_Currents
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Spirit_of_Currents »

It would be interesting if a player only used those units who must not die but could get any item! If he or she wants to cheat as little as possible, then he or she will be able to see how common or rare each item is.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

white_haired_uncle,
Swordmaster and Deathlord can get a Doom attack. Level it up, add a couple +1 attack items, you get plenty of attacks. Berserk helm to double that.

I was going to put this on the Deadly Units Wiki and link, but I cannot get my login to work, so ...

The best boss breaker I know these days is a loaded Swordmaster wielding Stormrend using Doom attack. Lightning and all those attacks might kill the target, and anything that lives is incredibly vulnerable afterwards. Just be careful of Demon Lords with reflect!
Swordmaster
AMLAs for Doom attack, upgraded
AMLA for extra attack (requires one AMLA for extra damage)
helm Mask of Insanity (berserk 2)
amulet Liquid Hatred (wrath and +1 attack), or other amulet of +1 attack
Quick gauntlets (+1 attack)
sword Stormrend for lightning damage and Trickery
The above gets him to 7 doom attacks (doubled by berserk).

My favorite AMLA upgrade beyond the above is Book of Magical Swordplay for another melee attack and dodge.

Using equipment, you can go for more even more offense with a +1 attack body armour and crafting +1 attack boots. There is even a +1 attack ring. You can get to 11/22 attacks with Doom and Trickery if you want to go all out.
I find 8/16 attacks is plenty, so I give him some defensive equipment.
Mystic Armour of the Untouchable (dodge and resists)
Dazzling Ring (dodge)
The Practical Boots (dodge)
cloak Beyond the Grasp of Men (dodge)
All those dodge bonuses plus his natural Struggle weapon special can get him to 10% chance of being hit. He still has to be protected from Demons attacking him with ranged spells, but if you keep him safe, he can run out and slaughter a Demon Lord. Even if the target lives, that boss is now auto-hit by attacks and has negative resistances, which means you can kill it with a stiff breeze.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

Negative resistances, excellent, I hadn't thought of that.

Here's a thought, switch out Stormrend for Cunctator's sword (assuming there's an alternative method of acquiring trickery, which I'm almost certain exists but I can't think of, if not keep an item handy that will change melee weapons to something NOT lightning), and maybe add Cunctator's Armor. Now you have slow, minimal damage, and hit and run.

The "problem" with boss killers is that once you've built them up sufficiently, killing a boss is kind of a waste of XP that would be better given to a junior unit. Better to do lots of attacks with trickery/doom and maybe mayhem, and get a slow in for good measure and perhaps incinerate if they have a strong regeneration, and then let an Elf Shaman or Human Mage make the easy kill.

I've started doing something like this recently with lesser berserk and trickery. I'll use the x2 or x3 instead of the x5 attack to try to inflict as much trickery/damage as possible without finishing the unit off. It's a great way to level junior units. Not as effective as that totally cool setting from The Ravagers which needs to be incorporated in mainline ASAP, but it works pretty well.

EDIT: I've never played MP, but I just had an idea. LotI based MP, where each player gets a certain amount of gold (perhaps with a handicap?) which can be spent on items/units/upgrades/etc. So, for example, we take your boss killer alone vs my boss crippler with a few side kicks and head into the arena to face off, or perhaps work together against a common foe. It'd be an interesting way to compare strategies. Just think how much "fun" it would be trying to figure out the cost of each item/etc. [I did notice there's a couple LotI MP scenarios recently, but I tried to play one standalone and a few minutes after I hit end turn the first time I gave up on it].
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