Legend of the Invincibles

[dabber]

Two Marrowrend providing impact penetration 40, I am not sure that it is the way it should be.

It's indeed 20, not 40.

No, it is really 40. Shows as 40 on unit info, enemy resistances when hovering mouse of their HPs is modified by 40, and actual damage looks like it is 40.
I don't think it is too powerful either. Back a month or two when Marrowrend had suck 3 or 4, the item was too powerful. Now I'd say its overall power is in line with its cost relative to other crafted weapons. Marrowrend is probably better on Efraim because he already has Leech, but for everyone else, Soul Render is better.

[Ashes]

I made another experiment: crafted a Dugi's Ward for Efraim, who already has Draingloves.
The Unit information shows both absorbs (1) and absorbs (3), and apparently they add: he regains 4 hitpoints after being hit.
I knew that you can cumulate suck values, I did not know that you can cumulate absorbs values.

[rytas]

What would be the reason of Gladiators multiplayer finishing the scenario without spawning a single enemy?

as in: choose character, get the item, 'End Turn' - 'Victory: You have emerged victorious!'

p.s. Wesnoth 1.12.5; LotI 3.1.17

[Jeffers0n]

In chapter 1 Escape from Oblivion, you can use Lethalia's flying ability and the bats to kill of the lich before he starts recruiting. Maybe make the fortress inacessible until Efraim triggers the Connor dialogue?

[dabber]

Started with saved game at entrance to Tunnels of Cruelty (2nd Inferno scenario).

Basic stats:
sword 26-9, Berserk (2), suck 3, impact (pen 40) Marrowrend
* whirlwind 14-7, Berserk (2), suck 3, impact (pen 40)
knife 19-10, suck 3, impact (pen 40) Marrowrend
Despair 20, Absorb 2, Regenerate 15
Resistances are A70 B31 C60 F60 I18 P37
66% defensive in open terrain
Redeem 11

Equipment:
Marrowrend Sword, Marrowrend Knife
Blackened Cloak
Ring of Wizard's Bane
Tears of the Dead
Intoxicator gauntlets
Spell Devourer boots
Mask of Insanity
Mystic Occult Armour of Carpathia (I wanted Mystic Untouchable, but didn't have that item at this point)

AMLAs:
Absorb 2
Regen +7
Redeem weapon advancements (all but cold)
2x Knife Speed, 4x knife
6x Sword, 1 whirlwind, 2x sword speed
3x movement (includes levitate)
Arctic Blast, Blizzard, Firestorm (all level 1)


Walked west. This time Lilith at Doom Food was not a problem because she got Sly, Blazing, Unyielding. Flaming Radiance was hitting hard before she died, and Mask of Insanity was arguably a disadvantage against her Whirlwind, but Efraim did not come close to dying.

Moving over to Infernal Narrows, found Abaddon and my first reaction was this wouldn't work. Horrid, Blazing, Foul, so slow attack, Despair 30, plus 100% impact resistance. Except Abaddon didn't use his cold attack - he insisted upon melee. I think he would have been more dangerous using his slow attack, but he presented no serious threat this way. It took 28 turns to kill Abaddon, knocking out the Succubus leader along the way, but Efraim was only at low hitpoints once from many "normal" demons, and I'm sure exactly why.
For a few turns, Efraim was nerfed to near zero offense by Lethargy and Succubi. At one point, unit info showed Lethargy reducing damage by 21. I was killing them so slow that I brought another unit over to kill a couple female Succubi.
It took another 31 turns to slog through the sheer numbers of Burning Souls to take out their leader. Level 1 Burning Souls are just fodder. Efraim leveled 3 times in this scenario.

[Delicius169]

There was a discusion about reedem advancement, chaos attack,... And I was away for two weeks, so sorry for not replying.

Chaos attack- I have problem with it, because it is used on defense on more targets, and it makes me loose XP for killing targets.
To magic attacks from Redeem/souleater ability.

There is a big difference between normal weapons/ magic. In normal wesnoth, magic attacks do the biggest amount of damage, but are super rare (Elder mage 16-4), therefore they are one of few possibilities how to kill one enemy by single unit. (another- thief with backstab, horsemen with charge, shock trooper/troll, dwarfish shooter, Elvish marksman). All of those units have their own advantage, and their own disadvantages and are useful on other units. But my feeling is that the magic is strongest thanks to 70% chance to hit. (And there arent much unit who would have good fire resistances)
In LOTI it is not a problem for a single unit to kill any enemy on turn, and normal weapon are better, because they stack with many abilities like slow and suck, horrid, poison,... Magic attacks do more damage, but all they have extra is that they hit more enemies.
So I suggest to lower damage of weapons, it can be done with lowering extra damage, they get from weapons.
Or, is it really good, that every unit can get slow on their weapons for such a low price?

and I still have big problem with whirlwind attack and no counterattack from unit I attack on. It make Abadon really vulnerable to my Efraim. There was an argument, that I could choose the weakest unit, so the counterattack would do less harm to me, but when standing against lonely Abadon, It would be useless.

Also, why is it possible for dwarfish shooter to get extra attacks on his weapon? He is an unit which has biggest one hit damage, but has a low chance to hit, as you can get about 5extra strikes in this game, its really OP unit (and 1 AMLA gives him +7damage to his weapon).
And Leadership like abilities could be also bit lowered, they are terrible strong.

So in short, I think there is no point in making magic attacks stronger, more important is to lower weapon damage.

[Dugi]

No, it is really 40. Shows as 40 on unit info, enemy resistances when hovering mouse of their HPs is modified by 40, and actual damage looks like it is 40.

Still, if the weapon property is 20 and it shows 40, it might be a bug. You don't happen to have also another source of that property?

I knew that you can cumulate suck values, I did not know that you can cumulate absorbs values.

You can't cumulate them, these abilities are just independent of each other. I can make a global property from it like as it's with suck.

as in: choose character, get the item, 'End Turn' - 'Victory: You have emerged victorious!'

On 1.12? I thought it was 1.13 specific (therefore related to a bug there). I will have look at it.

Maybe make the fortress inacessible until Efraim triggers the Connor dialogue?

Yeah, I will do something like this.

...
Efraim was only at low hitpoints once from many "normal" demons, and I'm sure exactly why.

Seems like Unyielding did wonders. Very well, it's time to remove it from Greater Guardsman's Leather Armour.

So in short, I think there is no point in making magic attacks stronger, more important is to lower weapon damage.

Okay, I will make them slightly weaker.

[Ashes]

So in short, I think there is no point in making magic attacks stronger, more important is to lower weapon damage.

Compared to magic attacks, base weapon damage is OK. AMLA increase of weapon damage is OK.
It is the effect of some items that make weapons much more powerful than magic, especially the effect of some non-weapon items.
For example, Ring of Iced Veins or Intoxicator could decrease weapon damage by 30%. Armour giving suck 1 could decrease weapon damage by 15%. Etc.

No, it is really 40. Shows as 40 on unit info, enemy resistances when hovering mouse of their HPs is modified by 40, and actual damage looks like it is 40.

Still, if the weapon property is 20 and it shows 40, it might be a bug. You don't happen to have also another source of that property?

dabber is using two Marrowrend: sword and knives. 20+20 makes 40 penetration, which makes Marrowrend really efficient.

...
Efraim was only at low hitpoints once from many "normal" demons, and I'm sure exactly why.

Seems like Unyielding did wonders. Very well, it's time to remove it from Greater Guardsman's Leather Armour.

Unyielding is efficient because it is combined with whirlwind. Whirlwind has some other issues.
I would prefer to reduce the efficiency of whirlwind rather than removing unyielding. An idea would be to add some negative wrath (similar to the effect of lethargy) when using whirlwind.

[Dugi]

Ashes, I like your ideas. Do the others agree?

[Delicius169]

I like that suck means lesser damage. But in that case, I think, that suck should be working with every kind of damage.
The biggest problem I see in the last chapter, first scenarios are already really dificult, and thisway the dificulty will be higher. (and then when you fight against normal human, the scenarios are really simple.)
And I wouldnt mind some item like: decrease all resistances by 100%, give +10suck, +10%chance to be hit...

[Whiskeyjack]

I like the idea for Whirlwind.

I´m not sure about the damage reduction, at least the numbers seem kind of extreme to me. If you reduce your own damage almost as much as the enemies damage (provided that you hit them before they hit you - otherwise you might get some cases of full retaliation), slow becomes completely useless. A moderate reduction might work quite well and enhance the value of units with inherent slows on their attacks. I´d say at max. -25% but would prefer <= -20% for slow.

@Delicius169: I´m not speaking against your suggestion here but want to point out: As far as I understood it the damage reduction would only apply to weapon attacks. Therefore magic attacks would not be affected by this discussion and following changes at all (which would result in an indirect buff).

[Delicius169]

I mean weapon attack which cause magical damage, for example Paladin has arcane attack with his sword. If it will be lowered, it should be able to suck, also...

[Whiskeyjack]

Oh right, my bad. For that case it would have to be mandatory IMO.

[Ashes]

I mean weapon attack which cause magical damage, for example Paladin has arcane attack with his sword. If it will be lowered, it should be able to suck, also...

This is the case since version 3.1.17.

I´m not sure about the damage reduction, at least the numbers seem kind of extreme to me. If you reduce your own damage almost as much as the enemies damage (provided that you hit them before they hit you - otherwise you might get some cases of full retaliation), slow becomes completely useless. A moderate reduction might work quite well and enhance the value of units with inherent slows on their attacks. I´d say at max. -25% but would prefer <= -20% for slow.

Percentages were an example.
But even with the numbers I gave, slow is not useless. When playing solo, the interest of slow is greatly diminished, but (as usually done with Elvish Shamans) if one unit slows the enemy, the others attackers will benefit from it. And I understood that Dugi wants to limit the "solo" playstyle.

[Whiskeyjack]

But even with the numbers I gave, slow is not useless. When playing solo, slow is greatly diminshed, but (as usually done with Elvish Shamans) if one unit slows the enemy, the others attackers will benefit from it. And I understood that Dugi wants to limit the "solo" playstyle.

Yes but besides disabling solo play it would also make those items useless because you would just use a guy with IDL or some FIs. You just wouldn´t use weapons with slow any more on your "fighter" units if someone else could provide the slow and it would weaken the unit itself considerably. Only application case remaining would be some "tank" units who don´t do damage anyway (I have 2 Dwarvish Protectors equipped for high defense and auras one of whom deals ~0 damage. The other is decent but still pretty mediocre compared to fighting units).