Legend of the Invincibles

[Aevyn]

I believe this summarizes it.

Nightprowler: Remove equipment bonus from Fury. Reduce the Fury attack to base 7-4--- add 5 fury improvements ( 2 for +1 attacks, 3 for +1 damage) -- max 10-6.

Juggernaut: Add AMLA line for regeneration (+4, +6, +8)

Elvish Overlord: Enable staff usage. Remove / Replace the two forest hiding amlas with 4 for Improved Magical Resistances( +10 arcane, +5 fire and ice, -3 blade/pierce). Add another for +8 healing.

Elvish Seer: Change arcane resistance to 40%. Add Arcane resistance penetration amlas.(Consider allowing movement throughout unwalkable hexes as Lethalia does --- they have wings)

Elvish Assassin: Fine as is.

Gryphon Rider: Fine as is

Faerie Incarnation: Decrease max heals from amla to 32.

Elvish Warlord: Fine as is.

I like the idea with the resistance AMLAs. Why not make it a fae-line like the ghost- and skeleton lines? It could get significant increases in arcane resistance and lesser ones for the other magics, but slight decreases for blade and pierce (because those are normally from metal weapons and the few exceptions I would subsume under WINR).

Made sense to me so used above.

[Whiskeyjack]

Elvish Overlord: [...] 4 for Improved Magical Resistances( +10 arcane, +5 fire and ice, -3 blade/pierce)

Not sure if those aren´t a little to high (at least at 4 AMLAs, perhaps make it 3?), but as I am not very interested in juggling numbers at the moment, I will leave this to the specialists (dabber, what dost thou say?).

Elvish Seer: [...] Consider allowing movement throughout unwalkable hexes as Lethalia does --- they have wings

I really like this, but wouldn´t it have to be added to Faerie Incarnation as well? And on those on the other hand, it would be a big powerboost (safe positioning for defence with the abyss at your back, quicker routes/shortcuts between fights, overall far easier and better positioning options for the backline). Perhaps we could say the FIs are a little less fluttery-ish?

[Delicius169]

To Juggernaut- I find AMLA for regeneration really week. You can get it from Titan legacy, by better price.I would prefer to give mayhem to main attack, as Orcish overlord has. And probably to give horrid to main attack also- but with penalty (-3 to damage). Or give him Anger on sword.
There is a possibility to give him a penalty- take his bow off.
I do agree with Elvish seer flying, and Faerie incarnation should be able to fly over unaccesible terrain.

[dabber]

I would prefer to give mayhem to main attack, as Orcish overlord has. And probably to give horrid to main attack also- but with penalty (-3 to damage). Or give him Anger on sword.

Since those abilities only work on offense, there is really no point to giving them to the main attack - a bonus attack with that ability provides the same function. Putting a penalty on the main attack in order to gain horrid is terrible - reduce damage output on defense and offense in exchange for less retaliation on offense. A bonus attack with Horrid but less damage and/or attacks provides the benefit you want without hurting defensive damage output.
If you want the Mayhem attack to be as good as the main attack, then redo the AMLAs so the Mayhem attack can get that good. I don't like that idea given how powerful Mayhem can be when combined with Anger and/or Berserk ... I think Mayhem should not get more attacks.

Orcish Overlord starts with Mayhem on his main attack. Juggernaut only gains Mayhem through an AMLA.

[Aevyn]

Elvish Overlord: [...] 4 for Improved Magical Resistances( +10 arcane, +5 fire and ice, -3 blade/pierce)

Not sure if those aren´t a little to high (at least at 4 AMLAs, perhaps make it 3?), but as I am not very interested in juggling numbers at the moment, I will leave this to the specialists (dabber, what dost thou say?).

It's probably not my place to answer since Dabber made the suggestion (though I included the malus), but the max it can provide is +30 arcane 20 fire and 20 ice, -12 blade / pierce after 4 amla points spent. Some units possess these resistances naturally and it shouldn't be a game breaker.

Being honest, I personally wouldn't spend the amlas required to complete most books to increase a single unit's resistances with other support abilities available, but that's me. The question is: would all of you? If not, we'll need to add more to it.

Elvish Seer: [...] Consider allowing movement throughout unwalkable hexes as Lethalia does --- they have wings

I really like this, but wouldn´t it have to be added to Faerie Incarnation as well? And on those on the other hand, it would be a big powerboost (safe positioning for defence with the abyss at your back, quicker routes/shortcuts between fights, overall far easier and better positioning options for the backline). Perhaps we could say the FIs are a little less fluttery-ish?

I can't think of any situations where a flying FI would be extremely advantageous. The gryphon rider would make a better aerial unit and we're capable of making an infinite amount of those. Faerie will be used for support more than offense so she'll spend most of her time on the ground with other units anyway. (assuming you don't have a gryphon rider army).

[dabber]

Upon further thought, +10/5/5 arcane/fire/cold is too much in my opinion. Even if you added a physical resistance penalty (which I dislike), those arcane bonus's would be powerful. Not game breaking, but I see the main weakness of elves now as being their resistances, especially arcane, so giving them AMLAs that roughly equal two awesome pieces of equipment is too much.

I prefer giving him +6/2/2 arcane/fire/cold, x5

[Whiskeyjack]

I can't think of any situations where a flying FI would be extremely advantageous. The gryphon rider would make a better aerial unit and we're capable of making an infinite amount of those. Faerie will be used for support more than offense so she'll spend most of her time on the ground with other units anyway. (assuming you don't have a gryphon rider army).

At least in chapter 9 you fight close to chasms a lot, where this upgrade would present 2 strong options for FIs:

First you can position the FI on a chasm hex and units around it on the land tiles to get a very effective and easy line with optimal support.
Second you can fight with your back to the chasms, over which the FI can fly, thus its easy to reposition without penalties. The main point with FIs in my opinion is the danger they face, when you don´t protect them on all fronts and the problem that you can´t move them safely without corridors/frontline (which you don´t always have, when you face high numbers of enemies and split your troups to clear the map faster). Both get a lot easier near chasms.

But yeah, I probably overestimated these options a lot and its not that big of a problem.

[Delicius169]

There was a discussion about elvish Juggernaut being uninteresting, a bit dull, so this unit should be improved.
It is elvian unit, so it s advantage should not be based on resistances.
Regeneration +8 on three AMLAs? Uninteresting to me.

[Dugi]

Okay, since you can't come to any conclusion, I had to decide for you so that you could proceed to another race. This is what I have done:
Nightprowler: reduced damage of fury by 20%, added two AMLAs that can increase its damage by 15% each (sorry, this attack's properties are based on the other attack, so its damage is not a rigid number, just percent-based multipliers).
Juggernaut: added AMLA line for regeneration (+6, +12, +18)
Elvish Overlord: enabled staff usage, added 3 AMLAs for for improved magical resistances( +7 arcane, +3 fire and ice each)
Elvish Seer: changed arcane resistance to 40%, added arcane resistance penetration amlas (10% first and then several with 5% each), allowed flying over unwalkable (50% defence there)
Faerie Incarnation: decreased maximum healing from AMLA to 32 (removed the advancement that increases it from 32 to 40)

Time will show how correct is this.

[Aevyn]

Lets get the ball rolling then.

It's clear everyone has a different playing style, but hopefully general agreement can be reached.

Humans Part 1

Units up for discussion:

Duelist Wizard: High survivability. Proposing slight default resistance reduction from 60% in arcane/fire/ice to 40% in each respectively.

Destroyer: High berserk attack amount. Proposing reduction to 8 times max. May need an additional ability to make it more diverse.


Blackguard: Very Generic; needs creativity. Thinking.

Elder Mage: No changes needed

Pilum Master: No changes needed

----------------------------------------------------------
My opinion:
Green = No Modifications Needed,
Orange = Needs slight nerf
Blue = Needs improvement


Edit: Fixed typo. I confuse Berserker and Destroyer due to another game.

[Delicius169]

Berseker? you mean dwarvish berseker?
I am surprised by Pilum Master, i find him useless. Can you tell me what is good about him?

[Aevyn]

Berseker? you mean dwarvish berseker?
I am surprised by Pilum Master, i find him useless. Can you tell me what is good about him?

Whoops. Fixed and changed to destroyer.

As for pilum master, it's a level 3 unit so I don't think it should be on the same level as the rest. Even so, it's resistances are decent and it's all right with melee and ranged.

[nuorc]

To Juggernaut- I find AMLA for regeneration really week. You can get it from Titan legacy, by better price.

I don't consider legacy AMLAs valid, as it's pure luck. I often get snow fighters with fire legacies, lawful units with dark legacies or the other way round...

By the way: Elvish Overlord has some cute wings too, which aren't good for chasms or anything...

[Dugi]

I don't consider legacy AMLAs valid, as it's pure luck. I often get snow fighters with fire legacies, lawful units with dark legacies or the other way round...

I agree with this point of view.

Dropping in for another reason, though. Can somebody please give me a save file from the beginning of the scenario Jungle Hell? I have tried to fix the drop picking problem, but I can't be sure it works if I can't test it. The fix works in a way that at the end of scenario, all items left on the ground (I may add a requirement that the hex is impassable) are placed into your inventory (thanks nuorc for this idea).

[nuorc]

Can somebody please give me a save file from the beginning of the scenario Jungle Hell?

Here you are.

Spoiler:

LotI2-Jungle_Hell.gz

(321.6 KiB) Downloaded 115 times

I hope it's the right one.

Edit: How do I clean the screen?

Spoiler: