Legend of the Invincibles

[seangregorycarroll]

-I like Elvish Blademaster as well Just to be clear though, I suggested Super Hero only because the term Hero was already in use which again is a logical progression.
-I'm not a fan of the royalty thing either. Thought of it because he already used 'Duke' somewhere. Grand or High Paladin are good suggestions.
-I'd actually use Strider for L3 and Ranger at L4.
-Wesnothian Lore really? Druid's are derived from Wesnothia? I believe their origin is in England circa pre-iron age specifically Celtic myth. Either way it's simply bad grammar. Faerie incarnation? A Faerie already is an incarnation!

[Whiskeyjack]

Wesnothian Lore really? Druid's are derived from Wesnothia? I believe their origin is in England circa pre-iron age specifically Celtic myth. Either way it's simply bad grammar. Faerie incarnation? A Faerie already is an incarnation!

I perhaps wasn´t clear enough: I´m neither defending the current names nor arguing against changes per se. What I did do was point out the fact that Wesnoth has elvish druid´s that by Wesnothian lore get their powers from their races closeness to the Faeries and the stronger they grow those powers, the more they change inside and out. Whatever association the word "Faerie" invokes for you, it´s probably unfitting for Wesnoths Faeries (if such beings exist at all, that part is rather fuzzy and was never clearly specified). Therefore using "Faerie" and likewise words for a higher-leveled unit of the Elvish Druid line is not in error, even if it does not fit the original myth. Only thing I wanted to say.

Being partly faerie in nature, elves have an inherent capability for magic.

If the above statement bothers you, take it to the writers forum and try to change canon that way... (good luck with that though, Wesnoth is not particularly quick moving in regard to such things lately)

[Celtic_Minstrel]

-Forester: Seems rather mundane. To advance from 'Ranger' (which traditionally invokes awe) to 'Forester is quite a let down. Why not advance from 'Ranger' to 'Ranger Lord'?

Well, in common parlance, a ranger would probably be considered a type of forester (though it's not entirely a subset, as a ranger might just as well be in charge of open plains as dense woods). I'm not going to comment on the ridiculousness of Ranger Lord... whoops, too late.

-Prophet: In all the 100s of books I have read, never have I seen any correlation between a Paladin and a Prophet... just not even remotely associated. My suggestion would be 'Paladin King'.

Why should a paladin suddenly become royalty for no reason?

-Elvish Shaman progression: From a traditional folklore perspective, Sprites and Sylphs have little to do with the level of power of a druid or sorceress. First path, I would go 2 Druid to 3 Arch Druid to 4 Great Druid. Second path how about 2 Seer to 3 Conjurer 4 Spellbinder and then 5 Sorceress and 5 Enchantress.

Firstly, shydes don't even exist in folklore (the origin of the word is uncertain, possibly a corruption of "sidhe", but I'm pretty sure it's unique to Wesnoth), and sylphs in folklore aren't really fairies if I recall correctly (they're air elementals). Secondly, your proposition changes the vanilla progression of the elvish shaman, which to me sounds incredibly silly. Thirdly, I find it hard to imagine how your suggestion makes any more sense with folklore than the pre-existing progression (by which I mean druid-->shyde and sorceress-->enchantress-->sylph; too lazy too look up LotI's extensions to that right now).

-Wesnothian Lore really? Druid's are derived from Wesnothia? I believe their origin is in England circa pre-iron age specifically Celtic myth. Either way it's simply bad grammar. Faerie incarnation? A Faerie already is an incarnation!

Your view of druids is amazingly narrow. They did not originate in England specifically, and furthermore they were never a myth. Druids were something like Celtic religious leaders, and were thus present in all lands originally under Celtic control, which includes at least France, Great Britain, and Ireland, and probably more besides (at least part of Spain, I think).

I don't see anything wrong with the grammar of "faerie incarnation". It's "an incarnation of a faerie". What do you even mean by saying a faerie is an incarnation? That doesn't make any sense to me. Either way, a "faerie incarnation" probably wouldn't be a faerie but rather a mortal who "incarnated" a faerie somehow. (This is just guesswork, but in any case the name doesn't seem too weird to me.)

I perhaps wasn´t clear enough: I´m neither defending the current names nor arguing against changes per se. What I did do was point out the fact that Wesnoth has elvish druid´s that by Wesnothian lore get their powers from their races closeness to the Faeries and the stronger they grow those powers, the more they change inside and out. Whatever association the word "Faerie" invokes for you, it´s probably unfitting for Wesnoths Faeries (if such beings exist at all, that part is rather fuzzy and was never clearly specified). Therefore using "Faerie" and likewise words for a higher-leveled unit of the Elvish Druid line is not in error, even if it does not fit the original myth. Only thing I wanted to say.

While we're on the topic of grammar - ` is not a character that is intended to ever be used in sentences. In particular, it is most definitely not an apostrophe or an opening quote. It really bugs me to see it used that way.

That aside, your basic point is pretty on the nose. In Wesnoth lore, elvish druids gain faerie aspects through their connection with faerie magics. If Wesnoth faeries do exist, they would probably share at least some superficial characteristics with mythical faeries (though if IftU is any guide, they'd tend more towards the "cutesy little people" view than the more traditional "fair folk" view; they may still share the alien viewpoints and mindsets of the traditional "fair folk" though). In particular, as I mentioned above, it's already established in Wesnoth that druids evolve to shydes, and enchantresses to sylphs. Changing that would be denying the core lore, which while possible is just kinda pointless unless you have a good reason.

[seangregorycarroll]

-Why should a Paladin become a Prohpet?

-I never proposed using 'shyde' or 'sylph. Perhaps my saying Sylph's and Faeries having nothing to do with druid progression wasn't clear enough.

-"The earliest evidence of the Druid spiritual tradition is from 25,000 years ago and is found in caves in Europe, such as the Pinhole caves in Derbyshire in England, the Chauvet or Lascaux caves in France, and the Altamira in Spain, which feature paintings of wild animals on their walls." The fact I did not list the other countries besides England is besides the point. I never said druids were myths.

-The very definition of the word incarnation: "a person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality."

-The definition of a faerie: "A fairy (also fay, fae, fair folk; from faery, faerie, "realm of the fays") is a type of mythical being or legendary creature in European folklore, a form of spirit, often described as metaphysical, supernatural, or preternatural.

Notice BOTH are considered to be spirits os what do we have here? A faerie incarnation? Oh, you mean a SPIRIT SPIRIT. mY BAD...

You, sir, are simply argumentative.

[pharmacy]

I've been having an amazing time with this game, but just today I've hit a bit of a roadblock.

Does anyone have tips on how to deal with the corrupted elves on the Sightseeing scenario from chapter II?
There are 4 black elves that start out in the middle of the map that one shot every single one of my units, including my heroes.
I've been playing on easy since I'm a very casual player and the campaign has been very decently paced until this level,
and now suddenly there are multiple units that can one-shot my strongest characters.

Is there some trick to beating the corrupted elves? Does the rest of the campaign stay at this incredibly difficult level?

[Blues]

Unknown unit type: Will_o_Wisp.

^^ I'm getting this error, what am I missing?

Edit: OK, in units directory there is a file Will'o'Wisp.cfg and it is zero byte. No unit file for Will_o_Wisp.

Edit 2: I copied Mist.cfg to Will_o_Wisp.cfg as workaround, at least the scenario loads now.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

-I never proposed using 'shyde' or 'sylph. Perhaps my saying Sylph's and Faeries having nothing to do with druid progression wasn't clear enough.

I never said you proposed using "shyde" or "sylph". These are the already-established strongest progressions of the Elvish Shaman in the two advancement branches. Scrapping them would mean completely divorcing LotI from the Wesnoth lore. If Dugi wants to do that, then so be it, but that would require him to design at least two new units (to replace the L3 shyde and the L4 sylph), so it's quite a bit more work for little gain.

It's true that sylphs and faeries have nothing to do with druid progression in a general sense, but these aren't generic druids. These are Wesnothian elvish druids, and it's well-established in Wesnoth lore that elvish druids (and lords) gain their magic from their links to faeries, so in that light it makes a lot of sense for them to take on faerie aspects as they grow stronger.

I never said druids were myths.

Sounded like it, but I guess it's possible I misread your post.

-The very definition of the word incarnation: "a person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality."

-The definition of a faerie: "A fairy (also fay, fae, fair folk; from faery, faerie, "realm of the fays") is a type of mythical being or legendary creature in European folklore, a form of spirit, often described as metaphysical, supernatural, or preternatural.

Notice BOTH are considered to be spirits os what do we have here? A faerie incarnation? Oh, you mean a SPIRIT SPIRIT. mY BAD...

Actually, with this information, it makes perfect sense. A fairy is a type of spirit in folklore, yes (though whether that's true in Wesnoth is anyone's guess). An incarnation is not a spirit, according to the definition you posted. They embody a spirit, so they're sort of like a physical manifestation of a spirit or something. Thus, a faerie incarnation would be a physical incarnation of a fae spirit. I don't see any redundancy here - "incarnation of a spirit" is precisely one of the intended uses of the word "incarnation".

[Dugi]

I used the upload version. You only have the 1.13 version on github, right?

At the moment, the 1.12 version is identical to the github one.

unit n sees hex x,y with the label 'Jen & Berry's Frosty Parlour'; unit n: 'Oh, I expect a lot of ice demons there!'

This could be done. Dialogue when seeing the entrance could do it.

This might help to have units the player cares about ...

Thanks for this. I fear the rest of your suggestion that it would add way too many loyals.

I don't know. I think I'd like strong, individual units better than weak copies of them.

Copies of Efraim would be strong enough. And you might change Efraim's gear on the way to make the copies differ.

The reason I felt like posting here now is that I see you are considering to make some changes to chapter 9, I hope you do! ...

Thank you for the feedback. I will consider it.

I also do *not* like the lack of turn limits.

The problem is that if I put there a turn limit, the player may be forced to restart the scenario to renew the turn limit and that would be annoying as hell. That is why I put the blood rain to chapter 9, to force him to hurry but without a strict limit.

Another general suggestion I have, is to do something about Efraim and Lethalia's redeem spell AMLAs (espcially the more advanced spells that are more difficult to get), as they seem quite weak compared to weapons and basic spells (gossamer, at least).

This has been discussed and it appears that the solution we consider is to make the number of AMLA points required much lower for these spells. I have not considered the option of adding them as bonus attacks, but that might come to problems with weapon specials being carried over.
I have read the rest of your reply, but I had nothing else new to reply.

Also, to both Nitramar and seangregorycarroll, thanks for the endorsments, it's a pleasure to read.

If I may make a few suggestions (and this purely from a cosmetic view point)? I am 47 years old and in my own personal hobby of studying myth and folklore since I was a child, I noticed a few of your class titles could use some polishing IMHO. I will simply list my observations... feel free to ignore... just my two cents

I am only very slightly over a half of your age and I am certain that my knowledge of Celtic myths is very thin compared to yours.

Now about your suggestions:
Predator → Raider: I have chosen Predator simply because it sounds very cool. But it could be simply because I have learned English not too many years ago and the first time I saw that word was in the context of that film. It gives me the impression of some sort of deadly, fearsome, primal hunter. Sounds to me like a good next stage for Huntsman. Raider isn't bad, but it isn't raiding what he does. It is hunting. Hunting like a pro, like a fearsome nightmare that prowls somewhere elsewhere and then suddenly the prey dies with no warning whatsoever.
Forester → Ranger Lord: Not that Forester is awesome, but Ranger Lord sounds ridiculous. Sort of like Ranger → Ser Ranger → Count Ranger → Ranger Lord. Couldn't think of something better that would not indicate some elvish druidy stuff. Maybe that Strider could do better.
Exterminator → Grandmaster Assassin: Again, it's like Apprentice Assassin → Journeyman Assassin → Assassin → Elder Assassin → Master Assassin → Vice Grandmaster Assassin → Grandmaster Assassin → Supreme Grandmaster Assassin from Murderovia. Bland. What's your problem with Exterminator? Terminator was also an assassin. This is a guy that just exterminates stuff. I got that idea when a friend showed me some parts of Doctor Who, I didn't quite dig that show but the battle shout of those conical aliens 'Exterminate! Exterminate!' was really cool.
Prophet → Paladin King: Paladin was a high exalted warrior told to be the greatest knight in smiting the unholy (or a fat hair thereof). Who was higher? There was no Paladin King or Grand Paladin, Paladin was already a very high title. Who was a higher semi-religious semi-military leader? Prophet. Many of Bible's prophets are told to have led massive campaigns to smite infidels and Muhammad's campaign was the most massive and most memorable. Most prophets mentioned aren't some boring oracles sitting in caves.
Elvish Juggernaut → Elvish Superhero: Wait, Juggernaut is out of the lore and Superhero isn't? Superhero is out of any lore except present fiction. ItsDaKoolaidDude totally nailed it with that Superman. I know that it's Hindu mythology and not Celtic mythology, but still it's mythology. The suggestion to call him Elvish Legend is way better. Elvish Blademaster is quite generic.
Elvish Shaman progression: The druid levels like Arch Druid and Great Druid are quite dull. Furthermore, Shyde and Sylph are already in the game and Enchantress' place is fixed. Of course that I could hack that around, but it would be confusing as hell. Faerie Incarnation probably isn't the best, I've been listening to a song named Evil Incarnate and playing a game with an ability called Ravenous Incarnation at that time, so I thought of using some Stuff Incarnate(-ion) in here too. It might not be the best, but so far I've not seen something better that would not be confusing or have some other problem.

Unknown unit type: Will_o_Wisp.

What OS are you using and which version are you using? It appears that it doesn't like some file name because I was silly and put there those wacky symbols.

[Blues]

What OS are you using and which version are you using? It appears that it doesn't like some file name because I was silly and put there those wacky symbols.

Gentoo Linux, Wesnoth 1.12.6. I wonder why the file is empty, some unpack error thanks to those symbols in filename?

For those interested in my workaround, below is the diff.

Code: Select all

 diff Mist.cfg Will_o_Wisp.cfg 
40,41c40,41
<     id=Mist
<     name= _ "Mist"
---
>     id=Will_o_Wisp
>     name= _ "Will_o_Wisp"

[Celtic_Minstrel]

That should be:

Code: Select all

    name=_"Will o’ the Wisp"

Names shouldn't contain underscores. They're for showing to the user. Sure you can ignore that and use underscores anyway, but why? The only reason to use underscores anyway is that programming languages generally don't allow spaces in their identifiers, so honestly there's no reason even to use underscores in unit type IDs. The above is the proper spelling of the phenomenon you're referencing (though I believe "Will-o-the-wisp" is also acceptable, if you prefer hyphens).

[ItsDaKoolaidDude]

ItsDaKoolaidDude totally nailed it with that Superman.

Didn't even try. Just took one look at that and said, "Elvish Superman?"

What about Predator ---> Apex Predator or even Ranger --> Strider/Stryder? (Bypassing the double referencing if everyone notices)

Could've been worse with Sean's option on Assassins. He could've gone down the Naruto route.

[nuorc]

@Nitramar: Welcome, and I see a lot of what you wrote exactly the same way.

and now suddenly there are multiple units that can one-shot my strongest characters.

Is there some trick to beating the corrupted elves? Does the rest of the campaign stay at this incredibly difficult level?

Yeah, those are nasty suckers. Once you met them you learn to look out for them.

As they're fast they usually come isolated. So I trap them by either offering a specific unit as a target or none; then I jump them with a ball of death. The rest of the campaign wasn't as hard IIRC.


Something different: how do I hack the Legacy of a unit?

I made it a point to see what the Scythemaster is about and now the Legacy is broken.

Maybe some reigning Lords advancement add-on (which I have since removed) was the culprit; can that be fixed?

[Dugi]

What about Predator ---> Apex Predator or even Ranger --> Strider/Stryder? (Bypassing the double referencing if everyone notices)

Renaming Ranger is bad, he's a regular unit.

Something different: how do I hack the Legacy of a unit?

It's hard.

I made it a point to see what the Scythemaster is about and now the Legacy is broken.

Maybe some reigning Lords advancement add-on (which I have since removed) was the culprit; can that be fixed?

The save file contains some weird units. Some add-on is very clearly being used in that scenario and I cannot assure stability if you mix up things.

#Will'o'Wisp
I have the same problem. The file is blank. Not sure what broke it, but it sucks. I will have to fix it. Fast.

EDIT #1: It was screwed up by git.

EDIT #2: Fix uploaded to the 1.12 server. I have included another minor change there, the new helmet named The Jester now has its own ground icon.

[Blues]

That should be:

Code: Select all

    name=_"Will o’ the Wisp"

Names shouldn't contain underscores. They're for showing to the user. Sure you can ignore that and use underscores anyway, but why? The only reason to use underscores anyway is that programming languages generally don't allow spaces in their identifiers, so honestly there's no reason even to use underscores in unit type IDs. The above is the proper spelling of the phenomenon you're referencing (though I believe "Will-o-the-wisp" is also acceptable, if you prefer hyphens).

Thanks for correction, I wasn't thinking really, just wanted a quick fix to carry on with the Game.

[nuorc]

The save file contains some weird units. Some add-on is very clearly being used in that scenario and I cannot assure stability if you mix up things.

Thx for the reply. After inspecting some files I had come to the conclusion that the saves are screwed from the start and far beyond fixable. I'll take a radically clean new approach. All in all I'm unhappy how BfW handles add-ons.