Legend of the Invincibles

[Dugi]

#Conviction
Okay, I split it. The physical conviction, called frail tide, is used by Prophet and the later version of Krux. Some demons may get it as a trait, independently of conviction.

#Undead legacy
I have added the items that give huge arcane resistance in order to allow fixing the inherent disadvantages of undead. They were meant also to make the Undead Legacy viable.

The necromancy ability transformation shouldn't change the legacy in my opinion because it would allow to reload to get a good legacy easily.

#Crafting
The helmet/boots/gauntlets penalty to resistance increase applies only for the increases physical resistances by X% effect. Other properties are not affected.

#Let's Play
Thanks for encouraging IywIYchI, the Let's Play guy. Although many of you have a greater insight to the behaviour of items, he speaks in the usual wesnoth players' language, that is also valuable.

[nachkar]

About items in general :

With the patches adding more and more items over time, it's getting harder and harder to complete sets, or to find books (as mentioned before by seveal, we don't find too many books).
At the same time, with new and interesting items flowing in, slowly but surely some of the older items are getting very much outclassed, and I'm not talking about raw power but also about interest.
In other words, there's too many old items with some very bleak/unattractive bonus numbers and nothing else, and if those numbers aren't extraordinary they quickly turn useless, especially as it is
sometimes possible to craft way better for very cheap/very early on.
So what about deleting some of the older/least interesting? (deleting or remaking, but that's a lot more work). Rather then simply "removing content" I think it would put more emphasis on the newer
and/or more interesting items, as well as helping sets (wich have really become harder to complete) and helping on the book rarity problem

[Whiskeyjack]

I don´t really see the book rarity problem (though that might be rng as always). I´m in chapter 8 and have quite a lot of books already compared to items. It´s more like the set completion problem: If you want a specific book you might have to wait for quite some time (or won´t get it at all). I agree with your assessment of some of the old items though. Iron Armor and it´s Big Bad Cousin of the Ancients were always useless (except if you were desperately in need of any items you could get) but there are others now in that role too (Sword of Barys, Poisonous Bow; to name but two). IIRC there are stronger items that are only available in part two? If so, how about disabling some of the weaker (weakest) items there?

[nachkar]

IIRC there are stronger items that are only available in part two? If so, how about disabling some of the weaker (weakest) items there?

Ahh I forgot about that and my last three plays were part II only, so that's probably why I felt there were so many excruciatingly bad items. Also except for the first of these 3 (but that was like many months ago), on my last two plays i got close to no-books, but again that might just be rng (though i've noticed other people complaining about book rarity, so I do feel the increase in item-numbers is also at work there).

[Whiskeyjack]

If the following line if the item_list.cfg wasn´t changed somewhere along the road and my understanding of the code is correct, it is not possible for the new items to have an influence on the amount of book drops.

Code: Select all

{VARIABLE_OP item_sort rand (amulet,amulet,ring,ring,cloak,cloak,book,potion,potion,potion,potion,potion,gold,gold,gold,gold)}

What this should do is in case of a drop of "other" (the two remaining options being armor and weapon) every named property has a chance of dropping equal to the number of mentions (1 for books) divided by the total number (16). If this is true and you want more book drops, edit the above line (item_list.cfg #78) by inputting another ", book" there (which should raise the chance to 2/17). I think this is the list for part I and the one for part II is exactly the same code at line #180 but Dugi´s documentation isn´t clear here, thus I´m only guessing.

[nachkar]

And there I was going by the simple assumption it was just a big pool of loot and it took anything from it
Thanks, reassured. About the books i mustve simply been unlucky

Still think some items should dissapear, the worst ones such as iron armour like you mentionned

[Xellos]

There will always be some good items and some bad items. If we remove bad items then simply others become weak. If we want we can tweak a little them but finding bad and good items is good and healthy for the game.Any unit with best items is very strong and should be able to go solo.
If we change the game so we will have much more strong items the whole campaign can become too easy to have fun, unless you like soloing where your random units kill anything they see.

And some "weak items" like poisonous bow are quite strong. This bow have good damage.
Well... It's true that others bow are better: Stormforce(slow) or fine bow(damage) are better. I like outcast(good defense) too.
but even poisonous bow is strong.

about two fire swords - sometimes they are weak. Sometimes you fight against undeads and they are good.

about basic armors -
Small difference between leather armor and iron armor means that Iron and Ancient Armors are very weak even compared to other basic items
So what about :
Leather armor 8%
Iron Armor 15% -1 move
Ancient 25% -2 move

Special Ancient Armors and Iron Armors without change (so they are still 13 and 22)
??
Dugi :
Please create rapier (pierce weapon) as sword. It don't need to be very strong. We don't have any sword with piercing(i didn't find any) while a lot of sword was used as piercing weapons.

If so many people say something about problems with sets:
What about crafting some parts of sets?
Maybe something like - random part of random set for 1 black pearl?
or
additional table in crafting where you can buy part of the set
but each time you bay any part of the set then increase cost of all others parts?

[Dugi]

#Sets getting hard to complete
One or two months ago, I asked if set items aren't getting too hard to complete because the quantity of other items is increasing. I got a reply that it's fine. Some sets are potent and should be hard to complete, but others are not and could be more common. Just tell me which sets are too rare to be worth collecting.
I don't want to add an alternative way to obtain set items, they are meant to be uneasy to complete, demanding adjustments in other gear, but providing a bonus that's worth it. If the cost was a black pearl for a random one, it would be too expensive.

#Uninteresting items
They are useful in early parts of the campaign because at that time, you need everything. Items like leather armour are easy to use and don't need other items to compensate their drawbacks, which is good if you have little items. Eventually, they will become less useful unless you bother gearing any unimportant unit in your team, but you can still make gems from them - I have added it exactly for this reason.
Also, as new items are added, these 'boring items' are becoming less and less common.

#Books becoming rare
Whiskeyjack is right, the distribution of item types wasn't changed for years. If you get few books, you are either getting as many of them as always before or you have bad luck.

@Xellos

Please create rapier (pierce weapon) as sword. It don't need to be very strong. We don't have any sword with piercing(i didn't find any) while a lot of sword was used as piercing weapons.

Fine.

[Cart84]

Would it be possible to include some kind of book of retraining item that lets you re-apply AMLAs? I'd like to be able to try out some different setups for Efraim and Lethalia (for example, Holy Sword + Entropy + Arcane resistance penetration) to see their viability compared with other options, but with the amount of experience needed to get more levels, I can't do this without resorting to debug level granting or restarting the whole campaign.

[Xellos]

About sets:
Personally i don't need changes with sets. I only wrote my ideas because i see that a lot of people wrote about this.

sets part2:
Destruction Set - Is incredibly powerful. Early set means easy whole campaign ( easy to farm with Efraim and this set - broken Efraim in late game). I like to have part of this set. I have mixed feeling when i have full set.
Unseen Odes - like the idea of this set. like flavor of this set. Really like when i have full this set. But It's not i really need it. I can create something similar without it. In late game is only good on very few units most of mages need penetration and it's hard to get it with this set.
Set of King, Ice, Concutator(or something like that) - only use parts of this set
pyro set - waiting for fix

More about Destruction set in early game
during my test run( i helped my luck with items and used my time to gain better understanding of the game)

My Efraim during scenario when i first can use Vitra i Krux.

39 9 blade marksman struggle leeches cleave suck 1 attack
27 8 whirlwind struggle leeches cleave suck 1 attack
20 11 knife suck3 poison -

AMLAs
faster*2, fly
better with sword *3, faster with sword, marksman
better with knives
better with weapons *4 (+2 damage, cleave, +2 damage, +1 attack)

Few interesting things:
I used 1 AMLA and Improved weapon AMLAs to improve my knife attack
that was enough to have 20 11 attack
my knife - +25% attacks, suck 2 (soul drinker)

this build has weakness - weak penetration

It's posible to gain additional attack from +10% attacks when you have less than 10 attacks
Just use Destruction Set to gain more base attacks

Efraim knife attack has 4 shots +1 from better with knives +1 from AMLA faster with weapons so 6 attacks
then he gain 2 base attacks from destrucion set
he has 8 attacks
then he gain 25% more attacks from soul drinker 8/4 = +2 attacks
then he gain additional attack from helm of destrucion

Dugi:
When will be update? I want to start normal run in part 2

[dabber]

sets part2:
Destruction Set - Is incredibly powerful. Early set means easy whole campaign ( easy to farm with Efraim and this set - broken Efraim in late game). I like to have part of this set. I have mixed feeling when i have full set.

With the gloves nerfed down to 1 suck, this set is tons weaker. The extra attacks are certainly cool, but you sacrifice two hugely useful equipment slots (helm and gauntlet) for nothing but damage.

Unseen Odes - like the idea of this set. like flavor of this set. Really like when i have full this set. But It's not i really need it. I can create something similar without it. In late game is only good on very few units most of mages need penetration and it's hard to get it with this set.

I tend to think this set could be stronger. It is hard to get and even the full set is not overtly better than individual equipment pieces. I wouldn't mind seeing more synergistic magic damage from the items.

Set of King, Ice, Concutator(or something like that) - only use parts of this set

Kings set is worthwhile for +1 base attack. That is what makes my Duelist Wizard nuker work - 2 attacks on his explosive fireball, most AMLAs invested in upping the damage. The other set items are pretty useless though.
Ice I don't use at all. Although with less fire penalty I might think about it.
Cunctator has a cool sword, but the rest kinda pales in comparison to the sword. Still I like the idea of the set, and I have fiddled with it.
Rherrarents (sp?) set is the one I don't like. It is merely poor in part 1, but in part 2 it is just terrible. The set does nothing interesting.

[Xellos]

Dabber:
Destruction set:
I agree with you
I said that if you have this set in early game then it is broken. You don't need very good sustain and defenses during chapters like 6 or 7 or against lvl 5 demons.
But Destruction Set and Paranoia(cloak with forsaken, arcane +20, blade +10 and better vision) is good, very good.

Unseen:
Really good defense and mediocre bonus to magical damage (no penetration of any kind).
I perfect set for mage with some starting resistances (only humans has something like that - prophet, celestial but they have arcane attack - terrible against demons.
Maybe Elvish Seer with Dark Dragon Legacy and this set would be good?
up to 65% arcane penetration from Amlas
This set gives very good defenses. I think that we should wait for new staves before changes.

King Set - +1 base attack - only 2 parts worth
Ice/Concutator Set - Very good in chapter 5 and 6 (reduce Efraim damage so he can't kill enemies = easy xp for others. After that i never use ice set.
Agree with Cunctator sword.
Rherrarents - - thats true - this set does nothing interesting. Elvish gryphon with this set maybe? Stronger claws attack, you don't need to use this sword. Its quite good.

[nachkar]

Replaying another one, from part1 onwards this time

#Sets
Unseen set : Agreed with Xellos and dabber, its interesring but a bit too weak. Specifically, like Xellos i think it needs penetration, else its never a choice for mages.
Destruction set : no comments, kinda broken as long as the unit doesnt need suck too much (high res and/or other sustain)
Ice Set : drawbacks are a little too much, even if the set isnt too bad. The set in itself is not broken op and takes many item slots, AND you need to compensate for drawbacks... hard to use
Rhearrents : same advice as dabber, useful for subpar units in part1, gemfodder for part2 (like unseen)
pyromancer set : haven't tried enough yet

[Whiskeyjack]

Rherrarents (have no game access at the moment - everyone writes this differently ): I don´t fully agree with the rest: Having the full set is quite good so long as you can´t equip your units with optimal gear, had this early on in c7 (first set full, only other I have is Gloomy) and it´s really nice to have. Don´t think I´ll use it once I´m deeper into Inferno.

Gloomy: Noone commented on this? I find this set to be pretty cool. In my experience it´s one of the easiest to complete and quite powerfull on offense - but you lose 2 important slots (ring and amulett) for magical defenses which is interesting when itembuilding. I almost always run this on my strongest offensive units - especially Ephraim (though he´s a little too strong atm, killing demons until he´s down himself, have to play him pretty careful but that´s exactly the tradeoff I was talking about).

Kings: I don´t quite get the others here I find it really useful to have on one of my Celestial Messengers - the set is decent and +base attack is always cool (I run it on a melee Messenger with Titans Legacy and Static Cast for ranged - 3 Lightning attacks ).

Cunctator: I never build a fullblown utility unit like this and the drawbacks were always to crass for my tastes. Only seldomly used the sword on weak units with hit and run that do nothing but slow enemy groups and retreat behind my lines.

Ice: Only have one item now, therefore I can´t comment on the new version. Point is though, that the drawbacks are - if at all - only bearable if you have the full set, otherwise the items are sometimes worse than equipping nothing (looking at you "-3 damage" ). The +3 base damage are nice, but you need a whole lot of +%damage to do more than compensate and get an advantage out of this. My starting point for changes would be to reduce the damage penalty to 2 or even 1 (if you take this set and considerable +%damage you won´t have much left to polish your defenses/sustain...)

Unseen: I don´t have a lot of pen items at the moment anyway, but I find this set pretty hard to complete and the defensive worth only really starts kicking in with 3+ items. How about shifting some of the set bonuses to the items proper and adding the new magic conviction aura as new bonus (that way the set would be useful for all kinds of magic casters and not only one specific damage type)?

Destruction: Don´t have this full yet so I can´t comment. (Though I always had a feeling that Doombringer heavily tops the sword anyways and pretty much only used the gloves pre-nerf. - for the units I couldn´t equip with Doombringer I mostly used Deathwhirl, because Penetrates > 10% damage)

Exterminator is fine IMO (oh, I have this set completed too). And I just got an interesting idea: Does the +base ranged attack (I think the set has two of those) work on magic spells? If so this might be very fun to build on an Exterminator-turned-Lich though crafting spell damage weapons might top it anyways... I´ll have to try this out if I ever get the chance

[Xellos]

Rherrarents: i should be more clear. I agree with boring part. And agree withWhiskeyjack.
gloomy set: fun. Good. Easy to complete. I like it.
Cunctator is weak because there is better armor of friendly general. Sword is good.

destruction means +2 base attacks and +1 attack and +4 base damage. Thats really a lot. Dark dragon legacy with 8attacks? Ok
but i can agree eith doombringer very good damage, slow and suck and even more: more xp in your turn.
desintegrate give xp for attack and killing in your turn.

exterminator isbreally good but only 1 unit can use it. About base ranged attack - it should. If you want sxterminator - best items for him. If not ring and knife give +1 base ranged (?)attack