Legend of the Invincibles

[Ashes]

#Lethalia
I must admit that I don't see what would be the changes needed.
I think Lethalia is very strong when going the staff+gossamer route.
If the goal is to have another good advancement path, a distant attack with explosive leech (which exist for part I, but not for part II) could be an alternative to gossamer.
And the main reason I prefer the staff to the axe is because the drain+focused is very good. But improving the axe also improves the whirlwind. An AMLA to make the axe focused could make it as interesting as the staff.

#Items giving additional attacks
I proposed a 30% increase because you would need three items to double the number of attacks, and my impression is that 3 base attacks is the average. Currently these items are very powerful on units that have few attacks (such as the Technocrat) and less useful on melee fighters.

[nachkar]

To continue on Ashe's suggestions :
For melee, probably something defensive that goes with axes. Also with whirlwind nerfed, it got even weaker (though the nerf wasnt aimed at her i guess). I feel its now at a point where it's rightful to ask "what does she even wear an axe for?"
In any case, if she's to be a viable spellcaster, she needs a lot of help/incentive, I think both defensively and offensively (if she cant kill reliably and without putting her at 10hp, she cant xp and its not viable either, when talking of a leader unit)

[nuorc]

you can take Duelist wizzard, give him Book of fireballs and after that he can have about 7 strikes on his explosive fireball. Together with basic damage 43, and quite high amlas +3 to damage, he is the main Plantkiller in a game.

But all the XP you are not getting from the collateral kills?

Beware of irresponsible usage of debug mode.

Shouldn't the advice be not to open debug at all? What I did back then, was to turn one allied Orcish Warrior to my side (because he was sitting on loot and wouldn't move for the rest of the scenario); and the double entries were hunting me like for ever. It's nearly as Dugi wants to punish players for even opening debug.

Modifiers that increase the number of attacks by a flat constant no longer affect thundersticks

So, effectively, there is no way left to increase the number of his regular attack with gear?

[Delicius169]

But all the XP you are not getting from the collateral kills?

I kill flowers just for items.

BTW, I suggested to implement suck on magic damage (of weapon), is it implemented? (or it wont be?), because I tried it on my Axe of Perun, and nothing has happened.

[Xellos]

Hi,
I have few propositions which should increase tactical part of the game:

slightly reduce power of Lethalia and Efraim
slightly reduce power of units with high resistances

Lethalia:
no additional hand attack
staff changed to:
3rd +1 to damage unlocks AMLS:"+1 damage and infect" (not +1 attack)
infect unlocks "+1 damage and greater infect"
with this we will have weaker attack with drain and focused, perfect to survive. It still can became very strong with items.

axe - treatment similar to elvish seer
axe 4 unlocks +2 damage and set damage to arcane and unlocks leeches (but you can't have suck)
cleave is rather weak as eight AMLA, especially in second part when you can gain it as second AMLA from better with weapon fighting
and if normal seer can change his melee attacks to arcane then Lethalia should be able to do it

redeem better with weapon fightning affect only melee weapons, not Efraim knife
3rd +1 to damage unlocks +1 attack and -1 to damage not +1 attack

Duelist mage reduce magical resistances to 50% he will be incredible hard to kill with some form of hp regen in combat
Dwarvish hero reduce psychical resistances to 40%
today you can give void armor to dwarvish hero to gain 75% psychical resistances from 1 item

[Whiskeyjack]

#Items giving additional attacks
I proposed a 30% increase because you would need three items to double the number of attacks, and my impression is that 3 base attacks is the average. Currently these items are very powerful on units that have few attacks (such as the Technocrat) and less useful on melee fighters.

If you should consider this suggestion Dugi: Make it 35%. Otherwise you´d need 4 of those items to get even one attack.

Beware of irresponsible usage of debug mode.

Well, guess I´ll have to live without a staff on my FI then (though I´m pretty sure I hadn´t yet started using debug mode for anything when I had two FIs without staves...). Concerning the debug mode: When I have Wesnoth running it´s almost always activated as I try out some stuff all the time and then just reload afterwards to revert it back...

Modifiers that increase the number of attacks by a flat constant no longer affect thundersticks

How about leaving the possibility of +number of base attacks? (Not sure if this is gainable through anything but the King set, but that even affects spells, which is pretty cool and would be one (quite elaborate) way to get technocrat to 2 attacks, which I feel would be a fair compromise.)

#Lethalia (and Ephraim)
Second Ashes and nachkar. I do not like Xellos suggestions except for the arcane attack (like with Elvish Seer), but that one is unnecessary, as Leth can get the Spiritual Transformation redeem like Efraim.

#DDL
I love this legacy (in the new version) but I have to admit that it feels very strong (currently playing c6/c7). Removing slow sounds fair to me (I always wondered why it had slow and drain right from the start).

Duelist mage reduce magical resistances to 50% he will be incredible hard to kill with some form of hp regen in combat
Dwarvish hero reduce psychical resistances to 40%
today you can give void armor to dwarvish hero to gain 75% psychical resistances from 1 item

The suggestion concerning DMs resistances was brought up in the past and denied because the unit should be more of a survivor than a strong fighter. If the strong offensive potential gets capped (as planned by Dugi) I don´t think this is necessary.
Regarding DH: The thing I like about dwarves are their high physical resistances which allow for some item combinations that are not possible on other units (using Boots of Perdition without turning into a punching bag for example). I don´t think it´s necessary to nerf this. If something has to be nerfed it´s the combo of bonus attacks + only advancing hammer damage. I had one DH with highlander on my last run and it was by far my strongest unit (though not able to solo for long as it had zero sustain): Something like 145 - 5 hammer (which has magical) and very high resistances without any buffing. I think completely shutting off +attacks (as with the DT) would nerf this too hard though, my unit had highlander after all...

[Xellos]

Whiskeyjack:
After reading your post. I'm not surprised that you don't like my ideas.
If you think that unit with 145 5 magical attack is not too good.
I think that you prefer soloing.
I personally don't like units with 60 - 80 % resistances, incredible damage and good sustain who can kill any number of demons without any problems.

And about duelist - it was brought up, but giving leeching to him or something like that can change everything.

Well even few new items can change everything. Part 1 is incredible easy. helm with frost bite and gauntlets with cancer = incredible lich
its +50 arcane, +40 fire, +10 cold, +40 impact

[Aedansp]

Hi. I'm playing in normal difficulty and the bosses don't attack me, they only fight with me in retaliation mode. It's a bug? Help me please

[nuorc]

Hi Aedansp, and welcome!

I believe that is the intended behavior of the bosses. Personally I think it's nice to know that you can move your more fragile units around the castles...

[Dugi]

Hi. I'm playing in normal difficulty and the bosses don't attack me, they only fight with me in retaliation mode. It's a bug? Help me please

Hello. This is a known bug. Seize the situation and hope to finish the campaign before it's fixed.

BTW, I suggested to implement suck on magic damage (of weapon), is it implemented? (or it wont be?), because I tried it on my Axe of Perun, and nothing has happened.

I am a wizard who magically updates files on your computer before the changes are even uploaded on the server.

#Lethalia
The staff+gossamer path is now what I intended. Its low damage makes Lethalia rather weak, although it does keep her durable. The axe and other spells were intended to be used mainly, gossamer and staff just to debilitate bosses and demons with nasty trait combinations. I am currently on Xellos' side.

#Duelist Wizard
His main attack was nerfed quite significantly, so I think that he will have to be tried out on the new version I am making to see if he is still too good.

#Dwarvish Hero
I am more inclined to reduce his damage rather than armour. He is very defensive, but he's meant to be defensive. The huge damage is what he shouldn't have.

#Dwarvish Technocrat
The king's set can still increase the attack count. It was an oversight, but as you suggested, it offers a working but not easy to reach way to increase it to 2, so I am leaving it there.

[nuorc]

This is a known bug.

Oh, it was a known bug, not intended. My bad.

The king's set can still increase the attack count.

I'm sure that'll work out perfectly for me.

Spoiler:

I'm currently at the beginning of chapter 3, and so far have found one piece of one set. I'm not really counting on completing a set, let alone a specific set.

[Whiskeyjack]

@Xellos: Well, I´m not sure if you read my post correctly then: I pointed out that the unit had a) highlander, b) too much damage and c) wasn´t able to solo (I don´t consider surviving one turn alone to be soloing)...
I only disagreed to nerfing his defenses. Yes I do like soloing, but the DH (at least in the way I build him, he also had lots of items with +%damage) never was the unit for this and thus doesn´t have anything to do with the discussion about soloing.

My suggestion for a DH nerf: Make only the first ~3 AMLAs with +damage for the hammer available to him without taking the +attack AMLA (which actually reduces his absolute damage potential if he has +attack items) as well and perhaps reduce the maximum number of those AMLAs. This should result in a harder to reach and overall considerably weaker endlevel damage. For the first couple AMLAs I don´t think the unit is too strong, it´s just the scaling towards the end that brakes it IMO (right now leveling my first one in c7).

Dugi, can you write down the exact changes to Leth when the update goes live? Thanks for all your work and this fun campaign.

[Xellos]

Whiskeyjack:
Nerfing damage is also ok for me. I simply think that he is a little too strong and i'm thinking that you could easily build him to soloing with highlander and weaker damage but better sustain. Am i right ?
I simply think that hero is by far strongest in his category as unit with strong defense and strong melee offense and even shooting.
ps i think that most of guys who play this campaign like soloing because right know it's better.

Dugi:
duelist - ok with me
#Dwarvish Hero - ok with me
#Dwarvish Technocrat - so everything which increase base attacks works?
rip technocrat with 48 attacks

and what do you think about nerfing highlander (healing part) because healty + highlander means that you have only 1 trait?

[Dugi]

I'm sure that'll work out perfectly for me.

Are you guys trolling me or what? I have done the change yesterday and I haven't uploaded the changes (it was written in the post containing the changes done so far) because the balance change with Lethalia is not decided yet.

I made Dwarvish Hero's hammer damage significantly weaker.
Technocrat's attack count will be possible to increase with an increase to base attacks, but these are solely effects of potions and sets. He can carry neither of these sets entirely, but one of the sets has the bonus applicable even without the item he cannot carry. But there is only one. There is one potion that he can use to get another additional shot.
Healthy + highlander means lesser highlander. Bad luck. It's so rare that it can be powerful.

No more input regarding Lethalia? If I decide without enough advice, the result can be of inferior quality.

[Ashes]

On Solo vs. Turtle

As I said before, based on the descriptions of events and characters, my opinion is that it is OK if Efraim or Lethalia can play solo, but every other unit is simply a well-equiped follower of a preserved lich/a demigod, and it should not be able to face unlimited hordes of demons or even undeads.
Of course, it up to Dugi to decide, but I would make items generally weaker, and redeem AMLA generally stronger. To really make a difference between the heroes and the followers.

More precisely, what frustrates me with the way Efraim and Lethalia advance, is that once you have chosen a path (and for example the staff+gossamer is the best path for Lethalia) there is no reason to try another path without starting the game from the beginning. The solution for me would be to lower the experience cost of choosing redeem AMLA.
About the other units, what makes some of them powerful, is when they get both sustaining abilities and high damage. One possibility to force them to work in group, would be to add resistance penalty to every sustaining ability brought by an item (suck, drain, leech, murderlust, absorbs, ...) One would need external support to improve the resistance and resist horses of suicidal demons.

The last question would be to ask why, if Efraim and Lethalia can go solo, do they need followers. And my answer would be that they need followers to gain time, because there is a maximum number of turns for each scenario which makes it infeasible without followers.