Legend of the Invincibles

[matsjoyce]

Bug report:

Scenario: The Army Of Darkness
Problem: Go to scenario, and end the first turn. All the enemies become allies, and you win immediately. I tracked the problem down to an event that changed all the enemy team names from evil to friends_with_all. This occurs on team 3 (green, the trader)'s turn. The event is:

Code: Select all

first_time_only=no
name="side turn"
[if]
	[variable]
		name="side_number"
		not_equals=3
	[/variable]
	[then]
		[set_variable]
			name="NEUTRAL_SIDE_i"
			value=1
		[/set_variable]
		[while]
			[variable]
				name="side_$NEUTRAL_SIDE_i|_original_team_name"
				not_equals="$empty"
			[/variable]
			[do]
				[modify_side]
					side="$NEUTRAL_SIDE_i"
					team_name="$side_$NEUTRAL_SIDE_i|_original_team_name"
					user_team_name="$side_$NEUTRAL_SIDE_i|_original_user_team_name"
				[/modify_side]
				[set_variable]
					add=1
					name="NEUTRAL_SIDE_i"
				[/set_variable]
			[/do]
		[/while]
		[store_side]
			side="$side_number"
			variable="NEUTRAL_SIDE_side_store"
		[/store_side]
		[modify_side]
			side=3
			team_name="$NEUTRAL_SIDE_side_store.team_name"
			user_team_name="$side_3_original_user_team_name"
		[/modify_side]
		[clear_variable]
			name="NEUTRAL_SIDE_side_store"
		[/clear_variable]
	[/then]
	[else]
		[set_variable]
			name="NEUTRAL_SIDE_i"
			value=1
		[/set_variable]
		[while]
			[variable]
				name="side_$NEUTRAL_SIDE_i|_original_team_name"
				not_equals="$empty"
			[/variable]
			[do]
				[modify_side]
					side="$NEUTRAL_SIDE_i"
					team_name="friends_with_all"
					user_team_name="$side_$NEUTRAL_SIDE_i|_original_user_team_name"
				[/modify_side]
				[set_variable]
					add=1
					name="NEUTRAL_SIDE_i"
				[/set_variable]
			[/do]
		[/while]
	[/else]
[/if]

I opened the save game file, and removed the event, but then the trader is attacked by the ghosts (pointless, as he can't be hit).

[Whiskeyjack]

Scenario Friends No More (chapter 6, Lethalia route):

Victory condition should either read "Conquest of the city" or "Conquer the city".

[Dugi]

Sorry for the delay, I was away and then doing some work and homework.

Was sad I couldn't boost it's power trought +attacks (or was that a bug? only tried with dark helm of destruction).

Its damage is based on the primary attack, in this case (0.7 + 0.15 * number of upgrades) * damage * attacks (of the main attack). There might be an error somewhere in the calculation, but it might be also some confusing factor, like time of day, leadership etc. Can you verify if that formula is correct?

Isn't it sad to force the player to, at some point, make such a choice? Couldn't you put some extra AMLA in that's remove that choice?

You can give him some weak leadership item to compensate instead. Weak leadership items aren't hard to get.

If speed is indeed a merge attack, the antisocial+speed being not that strong+weak basic res makes the warlock only so-so in my opinion, could it perhaps use an AMLA (or perhaps even an AMLA line) that further boosts the antisocial thing?

I could use the anathema ability from Legacy of Exile as an upgrade to antisocial to add it together with a certain boost. Any more opinions about this?

The Elvish Nightprowler has a slight problem : when advancing an elsvish avenger to it, there are two versions available.

This happens if you use debug mode (it's nice to see how many people do cheat). If I recall correctly, you should use the lower one.

Efraim can buy Improved Weapons to gain bonuses for both melee and ranged. And he cant use staves.
Lethalia cant use Improved Weapons to gain both bonuses but she can use staves.

I don't understand what is the problem here.

Something about Balance: ...

I still don't really understand what is your problem. Efraim should be different from Lethalia. They have similar abilities, but a few details make a difference. Efraim is more tanky, Lethalia can have stronger spells. That's okay. Or do you think that some of the two is significantly more powerful than the other? If yes, it's not clear to me from your post.

This unit has a knife attack with marksman special rule and AMLA to give marksman for this attack second time.

Okay, it will give an at least 80% chance to hit weapon special instead from the next version.

Scenario: The Army Of Darkness

I forgot to fix this again
EDIT: For the record, I fixed it and it appears to be fixed now.

Victory condition should either read "Conquest of the city" or "Conquer the city".

Right.

__________
I would like to see more feedback on the prices of gems. I might limit the number of gems of each types that can be bought from the vendors. I might also adjust prices. What do you think?

[Whiskeyjack]

Dugi, should you consider to add a crafteable option for the Dragon Rider´s bite attack (which I support together with a nerf of the attack, because other biters (all wolf riders) really need this (the only other recipient that comes to mind would be the Skeletal Dragon; I don´t know how the balance of that unit is at the moment), include something for the Chaos Rider as well please. His stomp attack deals only slightly more damage than the flamesword with a middle-rate sword equipped but that one has 5 strikes instead of two (using Dragon Claw).

My suggestion (I think I wrote this earlier as well) would be to expand the "claws" category to include all kinds of upgrades to natural weapons. I´m lacking a nice term for it though. Thoughts?

Edit: Scenario Axadria: The blue player is way too strong. I´d post a replay, but as he doesn´t attack the green leader I lost, thus here an autosafe instead: I just moved my units to the top left corner so as to not influence the battle.

LotI2-Axadria-Auto-Save28.gz

(592.31 KiB) Downloaded 120 times

Despite the 1k starting gold difference the green player gets destroyed on medium, because blue has such a crazy income. I´d suggest to make all villages outside the city proper neutral and/or tune down the automatic income.

[nachkar]

Its damage is based on the primary attack, in this case (0.7 + 0.15 * number of upgrades) * damage * attacks (of the main attack). There might be an error somewhere in the calculation, but it might be also some confusing factor, like time of day, leadership etc. Can you verify if that formula is correct?

Correct, controlled on both existing and a new one (max dmg = 1.15*atks*atkdmg / mindmg = 0.7*atks*atkdmg)

You can give him some weak leadership item to compensate instead. Weak leadership items aren't hard to get.

The problem was not "antisocial has a penalty, HELP", but "you are FORCED to remove antisocial at some point far in the AMLAs", wich would be 100% solved by your suggestion of adding anathema (as long as adding anathema OR lowering/removing antisocial are mutually exclusive). I don't think its too strong considering the base weaknesses of the unit (mostly fire-based wich is meh vs demons, weak basic res, magical on fireball but no other weapon special whatsoever)

I think Xellos meant the following : because Efraims is more weapon-based (melee+ranged weapons) redeem AMLAs are more efficient then for Lethalia who's forced into hybrid (melee weapons, hybrid spells), THUS making Efraim much stronger balance-wise on the long run

Edit: Scenario Axadria: The blue player is way too strong. I´d post a replay, but as he doesn´t attack the green leader I lost, thus here an autosafe instead: I just moved my units to the top left corner so as to not influence the battle.
Despite the 1k starting gold difference the green player gets destroyed on medium, because blue has such a crazy income. I´d suggest to make all villages outside the city proper neutral and/or tune down the automatic income.

Confirmed, same experience here. Wanted to farm items as in the (drake vs humans) scenario so i used quick units to rush the blue villages and steal them all in a few turns notice, and despite that and not impending green at all (hiding like Whiskey), blue destroyed green, its natural income is BEAST.

[Xellos]

nachkar:
About Antisocial:
How much experience do you need for that? I think that its impossible to get that many during part 2, especially because you always can add book for unit to get more Advancements. Just give him book of fireballs or magical combat or combat or even some support books (bard/bard2 for example). I don't think that we need any changes there.

Alexandria / Drake vs humans from beginning of part 2:
When i played last time i was using my units to block ally commander. I was waiting until he moved and then i moved my unit to the keep so he couldn't buy more units. This time i will probably send my few units to the keep and block all points where he can buy units.

Dugi:
About Efraim and Lethalia
1 nachkar wrote: " I think Xellos meant the following : because Efraims is more weapon-based (melee+ranged weapons) redeem AMLAs are more efficient then for Lethalia who's forced into hybrid (melee weapons, hybrid spells), THUS making Efraim much stronger balance-wise on the long run"
I can partially agree with that. I think: its easier to create powerful Efraim than powerful Lethalia. Maybe because my first Lethalia was weak compared to Efraim ( i gave her advancements to axes and spells and i think that this way is weak)
2 They are different, that's true, but they have the same redeem upgrades.
3 Improved weapons from redeems are better for Eraim because they affect melee and ranged attacks.
4 New magical attacks (from redeems) are better for Lethalia because she can use staves and because of that her new spell is stronger than Efraim new spell, unless Efraim has set of destruction (in this case i am not sure)


My doubts about advancements for units in your campaign:
You gave million options ( new advancements) to every unit and this is incredibly fun as long as you don't have knowledge about campaign and how the advancements works.
But after some time i understood that a lot of this options is weak. I can create powerful Lethalia (2 morrowends plus advancements for staves and gossamer) but i don't know how to create powerful Lethalia using other options. Maybe I am wrong about this but this are my feelings.
Vitra and Krux - they have sword attack with magical sword and some weak arcane attack without stave in campaign against demons. Yes I a lot options but in reality i should pick sword because it will be better. I can't create strong Krux using advancements to arcane attack but i can create strong Krux if i will be investing my exp to sword attack.

[Delicius169]

To have a powerfull Lethalia- Her strongest ability is Drain, she can get on her Staff, and with gossamer. (+Focused she can get on those weapons)
And there is a really nice axe (Fowleri´s axe), which gives Wrath ability.
Also, Lethalia can wear three weapons, so she can wear 3x Marrowrend, and therfore get 60% impact penetration.
She is strong enough to kill anybody, and to go on her own (she would have a troubles with Demon lords, though)

And I do lack more possibiliets how to improve Vritra and Krux.
I really liked the evil path of Vritra in 8 capter though.

Please, dont you hav a Savefile, from the Scenario, when Efraim and Leth becomes Liches?

[Xellos]

Delicius169:
Lethalia and 3 weapons?
I know how to do this in part 1 (staff, axe and otherwordy weapons) but i don't know how to do it in second part. I need to check how to do this.
And it's quite hard to do this in part 1 because you need 1 black pearl to create morrowrend and for example i didn't find even 1 during whole part 1, when i played last time.
"She is strong enough to kill anybody, and to go on her own (she would have a troubles with Demon lords, though)"
As i said i know how to create strong Lethalia with staff and gossamer and i don't know how to create strong Lethalia using something different. I think that Lethalia with Fowleri Axe and some spells will be much weaker, but i will try thinking about it.
Am i wrong ? If yes then show me the way

"Please, dont you hav a Savefile, from the Scenario, when Efraim and Leth becomes Liches?"
Sorry i don't have. I always forgot that there is a limit or something like that.

[Ashes]

Hello !
My impression is that it is easier to have a strong Lethalia than a strong Efraim, at least in Hard difficulty, because Lethalia can have drain and slow and Efraim cannot have as efficient suck and slow.

[Dugi]

I will better split my reply to topics rather than quotes now.

#Bite attacks
I have made these AMLAs stronger than most because they would not be improved by weapons. I could have forgotten about it somewhere or estimated it badly elsewhere, in that case just tell me. Like with the stomp attack of Chaos Rider (I have doubled the damage increase of its AMLAs).

#Axadria
Both sides have the same income, but the orcs have much more starting gold - it seems that it happens way too often that the orcs overpower the humans before the equal income begins to have some influence. I have increased the gold of humans.
If you are playing this scenario with Lethalia, they don't have much income.

#Warlock
I have added an AMLA that replaces his antisocial ability with anathema ability and makes him tougher and made it impossible to remove lesser antisocial. I think that nachkar was right here, it was otherwise a disability you wanted to get rid of sooner or later.

#Efraim - Lethalia balance
From your words, it appears to me that Lethalia should get a boost and maybe a small nerf in the gossamer+staff approach. Especially on attributes not related to gossamer and staff, so that she could be powerful in the hybrid weapon+spell way. What do you say?
I used to use her a lot to injure a large group of enemies with particle storm or something and then use other units to finish the rest, screening her, but it seems that most people don't appreciate this tactic.

#Imbalance of advancements
When I was designing it, I had no idea what would the consequences be. Some items turned out to be good for completely different reasons than I expected and on different units than I intended them for. I would need to think as fast and be as creative as a hundred people combined to anticipate what will lead where. What can be done is to improve what is not very useful and tone down what is too useful.
So if you want this problem to be corrected, please tell me which AMLA paths you find underpowered and if I see agreement on it, I will improve it.

#Vritra and Krux
I will consider adding something to them to make them more changeable and more fitting to fight demons. If you have some suggestions, come on with them.

[Delicius169]

I Thought that lethalia had 3 weapons.... Well I dont know why, but I was wrong...
sorry, my fault.

[nachkar]

#Axadria
Both sides have the same income, but the orcs have much more starting gold - it seems that it happens way too often that the orcs overpower the humans before the equal income begins to have some influence. I have increased the gold of humans.
If you are playing this scenario with Lethalia, they don't have much income.

I did play it with Efraim rather, but what we described (blue overpowering green) was the opposite : no matter how much the orc tried, the human would destroy them, even with less villages

#Warlock
I have added an AMLA that replaces his antisocial ability with anathema ability and makes him tougher and made it impossible to remove lesser antisocial. I think that nachkar was right here, it was otherwise a disability you wanted to get rid of sooner or later.

Oh that's interesting, will surely make it a more interesting unit. I really think it needs high power, because it's kinda meant to be solo (at least partly if not all the time) and most solo-units are incredibly strong base units + super strong gear, and before he definitely didn't fit the first, so it could only get strong perhaps in part 1 but certainly never too good in part 2

I used to use her a lot to injure a large group of enemies with particle storm or something and then use other units to finish the rest, screening her, but it seems that most people don't appreciate this tactic.

That's how I use her, though using the arctic blast for aoe slow rather then part storm, but it's probably because I irremediably screwed up her AMLA's and made her weakers then I've ever done in previous plays (at least she's useful for tactical purpose then ^^')

#Vritra and Krux
I will consider adding something to them to make them more changeable and more fitting to fight demons. If you have some suggestions, come on with them.

Agreed they're just too weak and that is sad. Right now they feel like elvish lords way back then : a sword and arcane+bad res, nothing too good/interesting
Suggestions :
- Give Vritra a cold ranged attack instead of arcane, considering she's a serpent-hybrid and has cold res (fits the theme) wich could upgrade with some slow (of course) and maybe something else? It would give her an alternate path (ranged) instead of just "go berserk and hit, or be useless", making her much more enjoyable on replays. Also having that + her corruption wich is fire would definitely boost her power, as many cold res ennemies are weak to fire and the opposite
- Maybe chaotic/evil improvements ? To further her dark theme, and I don't think it would be too powerful, as I believe most people are running with loyal setups wich are just stronger, or maybe neutral/loyal mixes. Her last theme being charm/seduction/trickery, what about an attack of that kind, or a weapon secial? I could easely see trickery in there somewhere, it'd fit perfectly, although it's use at later stage is not very strong so it'd need to be added to existing attacks or spells, or if its an AMLA line/attack on its own, to get other improvements, such as trickery improving to charm/seduction? (wich could be anything of the following : ennemy units deals dmg to other ennemies next to him once / ennemy unit cant move for 1 turn / ... )


- Give Krux AMLA's that make his natural talents/abilities stronger or go with it : his has divine radiance (16dmg to ennemies at start of turn) and the 20% more dmg to allies. Improvements of these could be interesting. There's the leadership bonus, but most of the units being high lvl it's not too good I feel. Maybe some defensive stuff such as +res for allies (shield) ? It'd fit the theme of "vritra is a mad attacking (berserk) girl" and he's the "calm composed defender/leader". On the same note, I think you could easely improve the divine radiance(damage aura) trough AMLA's. It seems very strong considering it bypasses resists, but it's at the start of his turn, ennemies in c8+ have lots of hp, and that means he has to tank/take on ennemy hits...

So let's sum up suggestions :
- Vritra : Cold attack + AMLA line instead of arcane
- Vritra : Evil themed AMLA line ? such as giving evil to attacks, or nightstalk, maybe submerge (she's a serpent after all)
- Vritra : Seduce/charm theme : add trickery somewhere, and/or make it an attack/spell AMLA line that evolves in some kind of charm

- Krux : AMLA line to improve divine radiance (dmg aura). An example would be a slight +dmg, +dmg, then slow on ennemies (powerful so gated behind two or three slight dmg improvements to it)
- Krux : AMLA line to improve leadership/protecting allies, such as adding shield(+res) to allies
- Krux : Some kind of defensive AMLA's, maybe some kind of +res, even if only +physical res, as he's meant to tank/take damage, at least a minimum.

Also the more units get shield/res and such the more you can have tactical tank+buffers+casters+damagers and such play, whereas else it's just the unit with tons of attacks+leech/such whom both tank and attack, with at best one buffer behind, wich is a bit sad of course. In that way I believe adding things such as shield/resists to Krux or trickery/charm to Vritra are interesting play options instead of just... more attacks and res and more leech. On the contrary, giving strong res to Vritra would be a problem for instance, as it'd just make her a strong standalone with a huge berserking number of attacks (=add leech and profit/forget her in a pack on ennemies) and I feel from what you've posted in here when there were talks about suck/leech that you don't like the solo-strong-units gameplay much for LotI

[Delicius169]

Btw: How about Evil Lethalia in Inferno? Why she has nothing like reedem, or soul eater ability?

[Xellos]

My idea for vritra, similsr to nachkar
Remove arcane attack
add cold attack
amlas serpent bloodline to improve cold attack, unlock slow and leech for this attack and melee attack and maybe even leech
corrupted amlas to improve dark fire attack, fire penetration, unlock frenzy and can change melee attack to fire (and add some damage like 2 points because fire attacks are weaker
Melee amlas are without slow
elven bloodline for better speed and defence, unlock distant melee attack (very agile) and ability of queen of darkness( move after enemy miss)

[Ashes]

For Vritra, the arcane attack makes more sense than a cold attack, because it is inherited from good Lethalia.
If you want to change this attack, I would suggest gossamer instead: it is currently the most powerful attack of good Lethalia, and it will be the case for Vritra if she can have slow, drain, focused (and firststrike).
I like the idea of AMLA based on seduction, but I would suggest a different type of seduction than the succubi. Vritra could have an equivalent of warlord's rule, for male units only (50% more damage dealt by nearby male allies and taken by nearby allies from male opponents).

On Warlock unit. I see the need of improving the standard AMLA. My Warlock is very efficient (but cannot resist alone surrounded by demons, of course). He is intelligent and strong, equipped with the Ice set, Stardust, a Holy Sword, Gloomy Ring and Gloomy Amulet, Cloak of Burning Retribution, Steel Helmet, and has had a lot of AMLA: full Legacy of Exile, full Guide to Lyncanthropy, twice Book of Herbal Tinctures, but only very few Warlock AMLA.

On the new items: I started once again LotI after the update, and I got two Taxes boots. Very useful I think. At least, they made me put a Unraveller armour on a Duelist.