Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Would you like enemy/ally leaders and strong units to obtain some suitable generated titles?

Yes
15
94%
No
1
6%
 
Total votes: 16

t3st3r
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by t3st3r » October 18th, 2013, 12:46 pm

Dugi wrote:That's intentional. Various information is stored in the save files, and it stacks up, slowing down everything. Because everything would be reset between chapters 5 and 6 due to storyline reasons anyway, I've decided to use it to restart clean. Also, the mechanics are slightly different in later chapters.
I want to make it impossible to start in later chapters, resulting in LotI being separated only into two parts, and that would make the continuation look rational. I am not doing it yet because some changes are still done, showstopper bugs can appear and they may force people to start from a later chapter.
Sounds reasonable, though I guess then it should be some 2 parts, clearly marked as such. And/or some messages indicating there is way to continue further. Right now game outputs message "To be contunued..." and shows credits. This usually happens when campaign fully completed. Not a super-heavy bug but can confuse players who play this campaing for 1st time.

Bonus: for some reasons chapters 2-5 were not marked as completed in "Play a campaign" dialog (there is specific graphic overlay put for completed campaigns, marking them as such). Only tutorial and chapter 1 marked as completed. Though Chapter 1 told its "Part I" but if there is easy way to mark remaining chapters 2-5 while transitioning player between them, it would be nice to do, too. Would give extra hint to player there're more chapters to play.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi » October 18th, 2013, 7:13 pm

Chapter 6 is marked as being also Part II. So it's written there that there are two parts. And to be continued is IMO saying clearly enough that it's not the end.
The lack of campaign complete laurels isn't my fault, nothing can be done about that. There is no way to control their behaviour. You get a laurel if you start an item of the campaign list and finish it, and it cannot be changed. All I can do is to remove the possibility to start with later chapters, but the time for that has not come yet - new crash bugs can appear, the campaign is complete, but not finished.

RaustBD
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by RaustBD » October 19th, 2013, 2:06 pm

Hey Dugi, I have to say that I'm really not a fan of the shadowwalker as an advancement from the master at arms. I think it makes sense for Efraim, but not for normal fencers that have never used magic. The drastic aesthetic and thematic change is utterly jarring, and doesn't really feel like it should be what all masters at arms advance to. My suggestion? A new advancement: Masked Legend.

In terms of image, I think it would suffice to just make all of the red parts of the master at arms' costume black and then give him a magenta domino mask that would then always match his team's color.

stats:

HP: 70
Alignment: Lawful
Movement: 7
Abilities: Skirmisher
Attacks: Saber (8-6 blade with grandmaster*), Crossbow (30-1 pierce)

*grandmaster is a new ability I propose that simply increases your terrain bonus by 5 and decreases your opponent's by 5 when this attack is used. The special notes would be: "This unit's extreme skill with its weapon of choice makes it more likely to hit with its own attacks and evade its opponent's while fighting with it".

Bio:

Legend has it that the first legendary swordsman in history, fearing the attention and constant challenges that would come with such a status, made a habit of always wearing a mask whenever he carried his sword to conceal his identity. Whether or not this was a necessary precaution is debatable but moot, as it has since simply become customary for all true masters of the blade to wear such a mask as a symbol of their status.

These masked legends are the pinnacle of sword fighting prowess, unrivaled champions of the blade with skills honed through countless battles and many a soul-searching quest, and the results are truly awe-inspiring. Indeed, there is a saying among sword fighters that these legends have three weapons: a crossbow and a sword. The things they can do with a sword seem to border on the supernatural, and they dominate any battle in which they can use it. For all other battles, however, their attackers will find their skill with their trusty crossbow is not to be taken lightly either.


What do you think?

Raijer
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Raijer » October 19th, 2013, 2:30 pm

I must agree that the Shadow walker doesn't fit as good as the others (contrary to exterminator, that fits absolutely perfectly), but i must say i don't like yours much... Sorry, but "Masked Legend" isn't really the name i would give to a level 4 guy that powns basically everything. Also, its abilities look too much like the swordmaster, who can lower the enemy's resistances, and that got 8-6 sword attack too (i know, he doesn't have skirmisher or a crossbow, but anyway).

As far as i understood, your biggest problem with the shadowalker is the magic (which comes out of nowhere indeed) and the image ?
About the magic, i would propose a change in the description to give a better explanation (something like, they found some items during their travels, or mages enchanted their sword). Don't really have any idea for the image, yours would fit pretty well indeed ( but no "Masked legend"!!!).

Anyway, all this depends on Dugi in the end, just giving some thought.

P.S.: a little thing: why "three weapons: (1) a crossbow and (2)a sword" where's the third ?
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley

RaustBD
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by RaustBD » October 19th, 2013, 2:41 pm

Raijer wrote:
P.S.: a little thing: why "three weapons: (1) a crossbow and (2)a sword" where's the third ?
Guess that wasn't as obvious as I thought. The idea is that for these swordmasters, a sword IS two weapons.

Also, I wasn't aware of the swordmaster, and the idea behind the masked legend is that it's supposed to be reminiscent of Zorro.

Also, no, my problems would not be put at ease by an explanation of where the magic came from, because it just doesn't thematically make sense. If I wanted a swordfighter who knew magic, I would have picked the sword mage advancement back when he was a fencer. The class 4 of the pure fencing path should not suddenly gain magic that can backstab people, something no magic user in the entire wesnoth mythos has ever accomplished.

Also, alternative names: (though I don't see what's really a problem with "masked legend") Trueblade, Hero of the Sword, Swashbuckler... It's kind of hard to come up with names that just scream of a higher tier than "Master At Arms"

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi » October 20th, 2013, 12:13 pm

Sorry for the delay, I managed to break down my OS again so I had to reinstall everything.

Some concerns about Shadowalker not being a good advancement for Master at Arms were already told. An important difference between Efraim the Shadowalker (or Philip the Shadowalker from chapter 6) and a generic Shadowalker is that the generic Shadowalker has much less magical damage than the other version (5-3 arcane on a level 4 unit is useful only in special occasions).

When you mentioned the Masked Legend, I immediately thought of Zorro, and shortly later about Batman. Zorro is obviously more suitable. The idea behind this unit is quite good. Exactly as Raijer remarked, I think that the only major problem is the name. Other suggestions didn't appeal to me neither, but I couldn't imagine anything better neighter. I made a quick brainstorm of possible names, help me to choose some or throw more ideas around:
Vigilante
Blackmask
Lawbringer

RaustBD
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by RaustBD » October 20th, 2013, 2:23 pm

Dugi wrote:Sorry for the delay, I managed to break down my OS again so I had to reinstall everything.

Some concerns about Shadowalker not being a good advancement for Master at Arms were already told. An important difference between Efraim the Shadowalker (or Philip the Shadowalker from chapter 6) and a generic Shadowalker is that the generic Shadowalker has much less magical damage than the other version (5-3 arcane on a level 4 unit is useful only in special occasions).

When you mentioned the Masked Legend, I immediately thought of Zorro, and shortly later about Batman. Zorro is obviously more suitable. The idea behind this unit is quite good. Exactly as Raijer remarked, I think that the only major problem is the name. Other suggestions didn't appeal to me neither, but I couldn't imagine anything better neighter. I made a quick brainstorm of possible names, help me to choose some or throw more ideas around:
Vigilante
Blackmask
Lawbringer
...So it seems like nobody likes "masked legend". Very well, though it's odd, usually when I come up with stupid ideas I quickly realize my mistake when they're pointed out, but I STILL think that masked legend is suitable.

As for Vigilante, it sounds cool, but I have this very sneaking suspicion that it's already the name of a unit type, and also there's the concern that suddenly becoming a vigilante like zorro/batman is something of an unconventional thematic leap as well, and would probably mandate a shift from lawful to chaotic. The idea would be that while he'd evoke the image of Zorro as a simple and effective way of it being a clear upgrade, it would just be a custom of appearance so he'd still be lawful. He IS a loyalist unit, after all, and they don't have chaotic units as a matter of principle.

Blackblade maybe?

Edit: other potential names: Stormblade, Grand Blademaster, Masked Blademaster...

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi » October 20th, 2013, 9:29 pm

The whole problem is that anybody concealing their identity usually isn't lawful. Masked men are usually do something that laws forbid (unless their masks serve to scare their enemies, which is not the case). Together with the suggested appearance, it is somebody who would prowl around at night more than enjoy the daylight. Good guys who prowl around at night a lot are mostly vigilantes in literature (or cops, private detectives and astronomers).

I am thinking that we'll have to drop the black cloak and mask if he's to be lawful. We'd have to completely redo him then, because only that weapon special makes sense with lawful alignment.

RaustBD
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by RaustBD » October 20th, 2013, 9:57 pm

Dugi wrote:The whole problem is that anybody concealing their identity usually isn't lawful. Masked men are usually do something that laws forbid (unless their masks serve to scare their enemies, which is not the case). Together with the suggested appearance, it is somebody who would prowl around at night more than enjoy the daylight. Good guys who prowl around at night a lot are mostly vigilantes in literature (or cops, private detectives and astronomers).

I am thinking that we'll have to drop the black cloak and mask if he's to be lawful. We'd have to completely redo him then, because only that weapon special makes sense with lawful alignment.
If you feel it has to be one or the other, sure, he can be chaotic, it's just that there aren't really any "noble" chaotic units. There's orcs, undead, thieves, but no vigilantes really... and have you ever seen The Princess Bride? The entire time we see the man in black, it's daytime. As the description explains, it's intended to keep him from constantly being harassed in normal life, and then it just became a custom among elite sword fighters. It's supposed to speak of aristocratic masquerade themes more than anything shady.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi » October 20th, 2013, 10:10 pm

I didn't try to tell that I want him chaotic. I just told that you described this guy as a person in black wearing a mask, and people like this aren't usually lawful. So it's obviously hard to name him. The name should be lawful, but describe a masked skilled fighter. This is somewhat too contradictory.

RaustBD
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by RaustBD » October 20th, 2013, 10:53 pm

Dugi wrote:I didn't try to tell that I want him chaotic. I just told that you described this guy as a person in black wearing a mask, and people like this aren't usually lawful. So it's obviously hard to name him. The name should be lawful, but describe a masked skilled fighter. This is somewhat too contradictory.
Fencers to begin with start using concealed crossbows quite quickly, a technique that's often considered dishonorable as the bio admits, and yet they're still lawful. I personally think Grand Blademaster would work fine.

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iceiceice
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by iceiceice » October 20th, 2013, 11:18 pm

Dugi wrote:I didn't try to tell that I want him chaotic. I just told that you described this guy as a person in black wearing a mask, and people like this aren't usually lawful. So it's obviously hard to name him. The name should be lawful, but describe a masked skilled fighter. This is somewhat too contradictory.
First thing that popped into my head was "Judge Dredd". You could try naming the unit Judge, or Judicator, or Justice, something like this? Chief Justice? Grand Judicator? Rogue Judge? Edit: I guess you already had "lawbringer". I think this is a good direction though since judges wear black, it can be tongue in cheek.

RaustBD
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by RaustBD » October 20th, 2013, 11:49 pm

Honestly, the only reason I opted for the mask and black coat was for an obvious sign that he was more skilled without having to create an entirely different sprite, to minimize the amount of work this change would take. Also, if you have neutral ninjas, that are called SHADOWwalkers, I don't see why we can't have lawful masked fighters named Grand Blademasters.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi » October 21st, 2013, 5:32 pm

Difficulty to create a sprite is not a real problem, I can draw a sprite if really necessary.
The problem with some unit suggestions is that they are frequently just stronger and bigger units with synonymical names. I aim for some more significant improvements, like difference in weaponry, armour, body, or abilities. Many units don't obey this rule, but that's mostly because I had no idea what else to do back then and I wanted to fill the blanks. I am still looking for ideas how to improve the boring units, those who are just stronger and nothing more.
So, if I was to add a new unit now, I'll do it only if the idea is something more than an unexplained visual change and a new weapon special (that isn't very interesting anyway). If only that mask was explainable...

______________
Btw, I have lost all my files due to accidentally formatting my hard drive, but no actual damage happened to LotI (I can just download it from the server). Expect that I will behave confusedly in the close future.

RaustBD
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by RaustBD » October 21st, 2013, 5:44 pm

Dugi wrote:Difficulty to create a sprite is not a real problem, I can draw a sprite if really necessary.
The problem with some unit suggestions is that they are frequently just stronger and bigger units with synonymical names. I aim for some more significant improvements, like difference in weaponry, armour, body, or abilities. Many units don't obey this rule, but that's mostly because I had no idea what else to do back then and I wanted to fill the blanks. I am still looking for ideas how to improve the boring units, those who are just stronger and nothing more.
I don't really agree with that philosophy. If the changes are too significant they detract from the original appeal of the unit. The shadowalker, for instance, suddenly veers off into assassin territory, which isn't really "new". People who are leveling up a fencer chose to train a fencer, not a thief, and they expect (and should get) a unit that's fencer-like rather than thief-like. They're looking for a debonair aristocratic swashbuckler/musketeer type and I feel they should get that, and that that's more important than making sure the upgrade is significantly different.

Sorry to hear about your formatted hard drive, that must be rough.

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