Legend of the Invincibles

[Dugi]

@vultraz
Okay, replaced it. I still haven't found what is making it look better...

@Raijer
Seems the error is passed from one scenario into another. It means that it probably is tied to the scenario starts, not to turns starting as I assumed. There is no need to report it again.

[icerom]

I'm happy to report that the last time I tried to play this campaign the interface was so slow it made the game unplayable but I didn't have that issue anymore with 1.11.2.

On the other hand... starting with Escape from Oblivion (not quite sure, but it's the scenario where you meet your former troops again) something odd starting happening: Efraim (and later Lethalia) will duplicate, that is, there'll be two of each, starting at some point in the first few turns.

Which is fine, except that sometimes they take the place of another unit, and that unit disappears from the game and is no longer available for recall in future scenarios. I wonder if this is by design or not, but I thought I'd mention it, in case it hasn't been brought up already.

[t3st3r]

My system doesn't care how much or where you equip items. You just equip them.

To my taste, the major problem of all item systems is lack of proper UI. Just take a look on dialog Dugi shown in spoiler and compare usability of this dialog to whatever exists in any BfW scenarios/campaigns with items systems. Now imagine you're player. Which UI you would prefer? One Dugi shown in spoiled or some plain items list?

Have you seen an inventory system like mine before, that doesn't use [message]s and instead is a whole dialog?

Not really. But can you implement, say, custom drop-downs, so when I select hand slot, all swords (or other suitable weapons) are listed? With their icons, etc? Or something like that? Or how player is supposed to equip sword to hand in convenient and fast way? And then how player could check if that unit wears sword? Dugi has worked this around a bit by overlay icons around units but it puts a lot of extra information on battlefield. Though such dialog probably exceeds not just what scripts could do but also what BfW core could do at the moment.

I'm willing to bet, no. I could, with a bit of effort, implement this "slot" thing you want.

Sounds interesting. Yet you can see, from player's standpoint good implementation of items dialog looks something like Dugi shown in spoiler.

So, no, you can't have World of Warcraft in Wesnoth, but you can have some stuff, and I think what I have is a heck of a lot neater than a lot of inventory systems.

Maybe that's one of reason why WoW is more popular. At the end of day, artefacts/items could be part of fun and each and every player would appreciate decent UI in game all the time.

How many times do you reach level 4 or AMLA with units when playing the usual PvP multiplayer?

Right, but...
- Even now there are dozens of MP maps with shops and other stuff to make units more powerful than they're by default. As "bonus" I can curse lack of good UI to manage unit's items one more time. Since those map-makers also have to reinvent same wheel again and as you can guess, the result is very far from dialog you've shown in spoiler. Because everybody reinvents wheel from scratch each and every time.
- Actually, speed of units leveling depends on map settings used. There is option to change XP modifier. So you can have fast leveling if desired.
- Some maps allow to recruit advanced units from the start.
- Handling large numbers of weak units is absolutely worst thing and killing all fun. I really hate if somebody takes 30 minutes to move all their 100+ lvl 1 units.

And soon, many of them would try to edit it. And there is nobody I hate enough to want him to have the 'pleasure' to edit it.

Well, bugs/imperfect design happens to be not just in your campaign . It's universal property of software.

As for bugs encountered in your campaign...
On 02_Journey_South.cfg there are 2 necromancers and player is given option to help one of 'em and that necro would join party (as far as I can understand WML code). However something goes wrong. I can attack and even kill "enemy" necro and event not fired. So allied necromancer never switches to my side. That's odd. Example savegame attached. BfW version is BfW 1.10.6 @ Xubuntu 13.04, 64bit. I can see debug shows undead_side correctly but related event never fires (attached savegame allows to move units to positions where event should fire as far as I understand WML).

[Dugi]

On the other hand... starting with Escape from Oblivion (not quite sure, but it's the scenario where you meet your former troops again) something odd starting happening: Efraim (and later Lethalia) will duplicate, that is, there'll be two of each, starting at some point in the first few turns.

The creation of this problem is related to a workaround that avoids the bad performance.
I can't test it right now, but I remember working on this problem (which is related to a difference between 1.10 and 1.11), and I remember that this problem did not appear later. There is a possibility that I brought it back recently, though. Did it appear on the last version with save files that weren't outdated?

As "bonus" I can curse lack of good UI to manage unit's items one more time. Since those map-makers also have to reinvent same wheel again and as you can guess, the result is very far from dialog you've shown in spoiler.

You're right at this point. You're free to suggest it in Ideas forum, anyway. I think I will give you some support there.

Well, bugs/imperfect design happens to be not just in your campaign . It's universal property of software.

This is INCREDIBLY bugged. Far more bugged than a newly released Windows.

On 02_Journey_South.cfg there are 2 necromancers and player is given option to help one of 'em and that necro would join party (as far as I can understand WML code). However something goes wrong. I can attack and even kill "enemy" necro and event not fired.

It activates when you step next to one of the necromancers. However, the event from the scenario wasn't in the save file, so I suppose that a stray orc activated it too early. I made the orcs unable to activate it.

[icerom]

On the other hand... starting with Escape from Oblivion (not quite sure, but it's the scenario where you meet your former troops again) something odd starting happening: Efraim (and later Lethalia) will duplicate, that is, there'll be two of each, starting at some point in the first few turns.

The creation of this problem is related to a workaround that avoids the bad performance.
I can't test it right now, but I remember working on this problem (which is related to a difference between 1.10 and 1.11), and I remember that this problem did not appear later. There is a possibility that I brought it back recently, though. Did it appear on the last version with save files that weren't outdated?

Its happening with version 1.11.2 in a campaign started with that same version. I also just had Efraim disappear for several turns but luckily he reappeared.

[Dugi]

If it happens on the latest version of LotI, it means that I have brought back the old bug again... damn. However, my wesnoth 1.11 crashes on startup no, so fixing it will not be so easy.

EDIT: Tested it on 1.11.4, and the only misbehaviour I noticed was happening with Elvish Sharpshooter and it wasn't very serious.

[Laber_Tasche]

Hey there,

first of all, this is by far my favorite campaign!!! Thanks for putting so much effort !!!!
A quick question, in the latest version almost everything is nice and balanced, very good. But, what does it do when I get "guide of quick fencing"? I thought units who cannot fence before will be able to do this afterwards when they read it, or not? Anyway, for me it doesn't matter who reads it, it just does nothing.
A general remark. Some maps are pretty big and the battles too long. Just give me and my opponents a bit less money, such that there are less units on the field.

Then I had a general idea which I posted already under the topic "NEW CONCEPT". But I thought you might want to do this,since you have already a nice toolkit from your previous work.
Thanks a lot again!!!!!

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So I simply cite my post here:

WHAT ABOUT THIS:
- create an overview map
- Lets say there are two main opponents; one starts at the one side of the map and the other at the other side
- Every round they get a fixed amount of money
- Every round they can fight one of the maps on this overview, to gain experience, earn more money, get items, etc
- The more money you have on the overview map the more money you start with in each battle.***
- Of course there should be the unit recall option from battle to battle.
- There could be traders from which you could by items at the overview map or traders in the battle maps or both
- there should be maps you can conquere and then they belong to you and they pay you every global round extra money; but your global oponent should be able to attack these maps and you his maps. But of course you will defend these maps and he his. **
- Your and your global opponents home country/map should be protected by very strong allies.
- In conclusion: You advanced your main characters, have a lot of money, bought a lot of items to make your recalled units even stronger and have defeated most maps, such that you earn a lot of money every round, you can attack the home country/map of your opponent and overcome him and his allies. And then you won.

There is so much more you could fit into this concept and make it very addictive. This is of course also a great opportunity for multi-player. With the available tools already it should be not very difficult to code it like this, or not ?
Thanks and success!!

** Playing against the CPU I think it would be more fun if you would not be able to save and go back as often as you want. It should cost you money to go back in time or awake a slain hero again or something. Then e.g. it could be a strategy of your opponent to attack a map of you, kill all your advanced and outfitted recall units. If you want to reincarnate them again and that will cost you money you need elsewhere. So he has weakened you generally.
** Also if you defeat some unit which is outfitted with items. You should be able to steel at least one of its items.
*** So certain maps you should not fight early in the game because then you have not enough money in the battle and will loose it and also loose your heroes.
*** Additionally there might be challenges maps, where there are no houses but only your and your opponents units.

[Dugi]

But, what does it do when I get "guide of quick fencing"?

It is called The Fencer's Study, and it adds advancements increasing melee damage and chance to dodge/block/whatever.

A general remark. Some maps are pretty big and the battles too long. Just give me and my opponents a bit less money, such that there are less units on the field.

You might be right, but can you be more specific? I know that The Den of Evil is problematic with overnumerous enemies, but I wasn't told about others.

Response to the NEW CONCEPT idea:

The framework I have created for Legend of the Invincibles would not help much with that. There are some special advancements and an item system, but nothing related to a campaign of that kind. This of course does not mean that I can't do it, but I don't feel like starting a new project. I am already working on two projects, and I don't have much time lately.

So, I will not do it. I was thinking about making something like that before, but it crashed at a balance problem (conquered lands would just give way too much gold) and a problem that it wouldn't support a story. There are campaigns like that as far as I know (not with features of Legend of the Invincibles, of course), so your idea isn't unique anyway. You can make one yourself, it is not hard to do, and I will help you with that.

And as a side-note, correct your other post, Legend of the Invincibles isn't a scenario, it is a campaign.

[arobinson]

I'm wondering if changing the experience of the heroes on hard is going to be an issue in later levels. My XP to advance is already up to 3418. By the time I get to have particle storm, I probably will not be able to actually use it because it'll take way too long to advance unless the last campaign has level 100 monsters.

Anyone gone through 7-9 on hard and been able to see if you can even advance to use the new redeem skills by chapter 9?

[Dugi]

There won't be any level 100 monsters in chapter 10. The increase in experience needed to advance wasn't much increased in chapters 7-9, rather in chapters 1-6. It won't have much effect, maybe adding 100 or 200 to it when advanced higher. I was afraid to increase it too much in this case, so I decreased the maximum hp they gain through AMLA instead of adding really a lot of exp. But I will increase the amounts of experience again if I'll read that somebody did it with leaders only again

[Silux]

Chapter 9
I tried a fresh start, but the default soldiers are to weak to stand against demons.
I hacked some lvl4 units giving them 20-30hp and they can stand the battle.

I wish dwarvish technocrats had explosive damage and some advanced units with "hit and run" attacks, as it's the only way to deal effectively with carnivorous plants.The lvl3 zombie monstruosity is a cool addition:D

Equipments drops are a little off compared to the unit one would probably have.I have the feeling to get more crossbows than what i need(only the deathlord, the fencer and the dragoon use it).I'd like to get some metal claws, schytes, bolas, thundersticks, baneblades^^

The landscape and the map are awesome.
Hidden loots and caves are a good incentive to explore!

[gfgtdf]

@Silux:
the Duke uses it xbows too.
and claws and bolas can only be rafted if i am right. and thundersticks don't exist.

[Dugi]

Silux, the units can't handle the enemies even with the items you're given?
Anyway, starting with chapter 9 or so wasn't supposed to be an option when finished, it is there rather for the case if something breaks or I add something new and you don't have good save files.

I was thinking about adding thudersticks to crafting options. I don't plan to add baneblades, because these items are purely spiritual. Maybe I might make ghosts stronger to counter this disadvantage.

[Crow_T]

Getting into the UI conversation, how much work would it take to put something like css or some other strong layout engine into wesnoth? I think having css (or even JS/JQuery) integration would add a ton of possibilities for UMC designers.

[Silux]

@crow_t
that's a suggestion for main developers.
I really support this anyway!

@dugi
i tried giving items to the units items, but it's a bit disheartening to see killed by two demons the units you just equipped.
The toughest problem isn't just winning against the starting demons, but they keep flowing in from apparently nowhere, and you probably have wounded units.
Armors are by far more useful than good weapons against demons, even more those with +20% protection and some magical protection.
A demon with a 40-2 ranged absorb can easily kill a full equipped unit even with a good armor.

Plants are more powerful than the same units of the same level and have more life than lvl7 units.
The weakest plants could be easily lvl5 and stronger lvl8.Please no more than lvl8 because they are a reliable redeem fodder

Can i design some thundersticks?

edit:
some crafting items like Misorcia and Misdriadia are no longer useful in chapter 9, as there are no more orcs and elves.
Why not replacing them with anti-demon gear?