Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
51
21%
Reaper
28
12%
Scythemaster
20
8%
Shadowalker
17
7%
Shadow Prince
19
8%
Siege Troll
11
5%
Sky Goblin
4
2%
Snow Hunter
20
8%
Soul Shooter
5
2%
Swordmaster
28
12%
Troll Boulderlobber
2
1%
Warlock
24
10%
Werewolf Rider
5
2%
Zombie Rider
7
3%
 
Total votes: 241

Raijer
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

but this time more powerful and cleaned from the evil within them. But the evil from inside them continued to exist,
That's in the description of part 2. It seems strange to me, especially the second sentence, as you repeat "the evil from inside" (not exactly, but still). I would say something like "but this time more powerful and separated from the evil within them. But their evil part took another form,...". For me, "cleaned" implies that the evil was destroyed, which isn't the case, the good and evil simply became two instead of one.
and started a skirmish to conquest the world.
Isn't "skirmish" for just one battle ? Wouldn't "war" be better ? Also, i think it's "conquer" and not "conquest".

English isn't my native language so i might be wrong.

Also, about chill and cold, the problem is that chill (or cold, i will research it) says 3 times "infernal chill" in its description, which is kinda strange.

Jefferson wrote:Then they're too powerful, They killed the amplifier before I even saw him
I got the same. But i don't think they're overly powerful, it's just that there's a ton of them. Also the amplificator isn't that strong. Maybe making them keep out of the island ?
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

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t3st3r
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One minor issue found...

Post by t3st3r »

One minor issue found on "Gods" scenario - chapter 2:
If you bash bandits with your team for a while, etc, humans could have their Harry leutenant killed by some hostiles roaming on map. if Harry is killed, dialog with humans is wrecked and looks odd as Harry speech is completely missing. Either AI should be more careful in keeping Harry alive and more guards, etc or there shouuld be some handling of this edge case if it's considered to be acceptable. Else some players could encounter fairly dumb dialog without obvious hints what to do with enemy elves (Harry is supposed to tell about that problem but if it's already died, all Harry phrases are silently skipped).
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Aevyn »

Here's a tiny issue.

In the scenario "Invasion" (Chapter 4), Teh Ehro likes to move around a lot. This usually isn't an issue except that he sometimes decides that his original recruiting location isn't cool enough and then proceeds to steal Malin Keshar's spot..... who then is unable to recruit new undead.

I've attached my save file as an example. Simply end the current turn to see what I mean.
Attachments
LotI1-Invasion_Turn_2.gz
(507.15 KiB) Downloaded 142 times
Raijer
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

@Aevyn: Actually, the allied leaders don't have any money in that scenario (in normal, at least), even Malin Keshar can't recruit for more than 4-5 turns (and then some from time to time) if i remember right. I don't think that issue actually changes something. Also, i don't remember exactly, but can't Keshar go to Teh Ehro's keep in one turn ?

Problem with Vritra's avancement: She has 2 "faster with faerie fire", one that really has that effect, and one that makes her dark blast stronger.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Aevyn wrote:As far as I'm concerned, these campaigns should be packaged into Wesnoth by default.
The number of positive comments about this campaign is making me think about asking to make a mainline campaign of it once that it is complete and debugged to some level.
Konrad2 wrote:in the description of the first chapter, change "...preserved their human appearance..." into "...preserved their original appearance..." because Lethalia doesnt exactly have an human appearance (maybe its not an important detail)
Done.
Konrad2 wrote:also at end of chapter 3 they seem to already know that asheviere is evil and that she will become a tryrannt
They just noticed that she was an ambitious despot. She probably wanted to rule, and thought that others were ruling wrongly. That is what they assumed when they saw her demoting of the general. There are people who want to rule without being evil, Peisistratos, a Greek ruler, titled himself tyrant and ruled for 19 years autocratically, and the reason for his prolonged rule was how the people loved him for his populism, he never tamed any uprisings and the only group of people who opposed him was the aristocracy. They helped her to gain the throne for the small price of renaming the country, but it had nothing to do with her corruption by the Book of Crelanu. She gained power thanks to them, and became a horrendous dark queen because of the book.
Jeffers0n wrote:Then they're too powerful, They killed the amplifier before I even saw him
Yeah, I'll make them weaker.
Jeffers0n wrote:In chapter five, if you use lava stream on a trapdoor the will still intact, floating above the lava
I'll fix this, I never thought of this.
Raijer wrote:Isn't "skirmish" for just one battle ? Wouldn't "war" be better ? Also, i think it's "conquer" and not "conquest".
Yeah, skirmish wasn't exactly the best word for that. And I really wrote conquest instead of conquer. I also edited the wording of 'cleansed from the evil from within them' to 'ridden of the evil from within'. I am sure the word 'within' is correct in this case.
Raijer wrote:Also, about chill and cold, the problem is that chill (or cold, i will research it) says 3 times "infernal chill" in its description, which is kinda strange.
The description is generated automatically and done only partially, so I can add only something at the beginning, and it will generate the idiotic text.
t3st3r wrote:One minor issue found on "Gods" scenario - chapter 2:
I thought I made the enemies ignore their side... Seems I will have to correct it. Thanks for returning to t3st my campaign again.
Aevyn wrote:In the scenario "Invasion" (Chapter 4), Teh Ehro likes to move around a lot. This usually isn't an issue except that he sometimes decides that his original recruiting location isn't cool enough and then proceeds to steal Malin Keshar's spot..... who then is unable to recruit new undead.
That might happen if he attacks and then fails to remember which was his keep. I'll make him avoid coming there.
Raijer wrote:Actually, the allied leaders don't have any money in that scenario (in normal, at least), even Malin Keshar can't recruit for more than 4-5 turns (and then some from time to time) if i remember right.
Hm... It seems I failed to notice that Malin Keshar's side is recalled, possibly with negative gold from the previous scenario. I didn't know that it is possible back then. I'll correct it.
Raijer wrote:Problem with Vritra's avancement: She has 2 "faster with faerie fire", one that really has that effect, and one that makes her dark blast stronger.
Will be fixed.

Sorry guys, I don't think I have enough time to fix it now, but it should not take too long.
Raijer
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Raijer »

There's a typo in "Gladiatrix - path to glory". The fencer says "reinforements" instead of "reinforcements".

Edit: Was a little late to report it, but the duke's sword attack has the mace sound.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley
t3st3r
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by t3st3r »

Dugi wrote:The number of positive comments about this campaign is making me think about asking to make a mainline campaign of it once that it is complete and debugged to some level.
As for me, I thought about at least the following:
1) I really like your AMLA system + new units/levels. Actually I like them far more than standard Wesnoth ones :geek:. Especially AMLA. Standard BfW AMLA is dumb. For human it's more convenient to play with relatively few powerful units rather than command hundreds of weaklings individually. It takes a way too much time to control large number of weak units. This increases chance of errors and kills most of fun sa it takes half an hour to complete one turn. I really prefer relatively low numbers of relatively powerfull units (around some ~20 units or so, like your recall system in last chapter). Your new levels of units and better AMLAs are really adding more fun to gameplay to my taste. As for me, some of these could really improve BfW as whole if integrated "by default". Maybe it's possible to suggest some of these ideas to BfW devs?

2) As for me, I can see quite many campaigns/maps with item systems/equipment/traders/artefacts/etc. It makes me to think that would be great if BfW would provide some "native" decent UI for unit information/equip/unequip dialogs, which would allow easy and obvious ways to deal with items/artefacts equipped by particular unit. Else campaigns authors forced to write ton of extra code and UI isn't very convenient. I think it should be part of BfW, at least some decent dialog for items management. Maybe I should try to file such feature request to bug tracker? I think it's really weird if campaign authors have to reinvent things like UI to manage artefacts from scratch.
Thanks for returning to t3st my campaign again.
Well, I played early chapters some eons ago and I really want to see how they're looking these days, after so many changes/fixes/improvements. It's real fun to replay this campaign :mrgreen:.

I can admit that after I completed 1st chapter without major troubles, mid of 2nd chapter has become quite a challenge as I chosen to continue from 1st chapter and this seems to be taken into account. First of all, my army still remains seriously underequipped/weak, even after playing 1st chapter and half of second, while I have to deal with large hordes of deadly enemies in the mid of 2nd chapter. Then, maybe I developed liches bad or something, but on 06_The_Army_of_Darkness.cfg on "normal" difficulty level has been a challenge for me. Most notably there are so many high-level ghosts that neither I have enough time to dispatch them in relatively small groups, nor liches could withstand their attacks if they're coming in large groups/encircling. And they do, when I getting close to their leaders. This took several attempts for me. At the end I used fairly uncommon trick to hide Lethalia from ghosts in deep water and then attack leader by surprise. However it seems to be rather "hard" compared to all previous scenarios. Tight time limit suggests more or less direct attack but with all those high-level ghosts it rather turns out to be suicide even for preserved liches. So it took a number of retries to invent tactic which will do the trick and I barely managed to kill all leaders within time limit.

Also I can admit some minor discrepancies.
- If you equip staff on faerie who does touch attacks, it's possible to equip staff but it seems to have no effect on melee attacks and only affects magic. I'm not sure if it's what expected. Maybe there should be staff melee attack option added if unit lacks staff attack natively? This especially concerns some "special" attacks like incinerate, etc. It took quite a while for me to understand why elvish sylph no longer able to incinirate enemy - it has turned out that after levelup staff only retains its effects for magic as unit abandons staff in favor of touch but staff still equipped and takes effect on spellpower. I'm not sure if it's a problem, maybe it's have to be expected, yet I can only expect this behavior after thinking twice :)
- Flying units. They all seems to have different abilities in terms of passable areas. This really causes some mess when quite similar flying units (or units with flying boots) are crossing uncommon terrains like lava/void/deep water/.... As for me it's quite messy. For example, is it ok that flying boots can't fly over lava? So even Efraim can't fly over lava, even if it getting fly ability from boots and in other terms he is equal to Lethalia as unit type, etc. Is it ok if bats can fly over void but many other flying units can't? Though some of those strange things seems to be from BfW itself.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

t3st3r wrote:. As for me, some of these could really improve BfW as whole if integrated "by default". Maybe it's possible to suggest some of these ideas to BfW devs?
@dugi if you are gonna do this pls inform me, because i will be eager to help balancing and searching for bugs if it speeds up the release of it in normal wesnoth
t3st3r wrote:.
I can admit that after I completed 1st chapter without major troubles, mid of 2nd chapter has become quite a challenge as I chosen to continue from 1st chapter and this seems to be taken into account. First of all, my army still remains seriously underequipped/weak, even after playing 1st chapter and half of second, while I have to deal with large hordes of deadly enemies in the mid of 2nd chapter. Then, maybe I developed liches bad or something, but on 06_The_Army_of_Darkness.cfg on "normal" difficulty level has been a challenge for me. Most notably there are so many high-level ghosts that neither I have enough time to dispatch them in relatively small groups, nor liches could withstand their attacks if they're coming in large groups/encircling. And they do, when I getting close to their leaders. This took several attempts for me. At the end I used fairly uncommon trick to hide Lethalia from ghosts in deep water and then attack leader by surprise. However it seems to be rather "hard" compared to all previous scenarios. Tight time limit suggests more or less direct attack but with all those high-level ghosts it rather turns out to be suicide even for preserved liches. So it took a number of retries to invent tactic which will do the trick and I barely managed to kill all leaders within time limit.

@t3st3r if you need help or want to play the scenario again in a different way, here is my guide for it (cant promise that it works without losses like for me, might depend on how you recruited and skilled before preserved liches)
Spoiler:
@dugi the hard part for me is when lethalia has to deal with Malin Keshar (poor guy), because i always used efraim to tank the damage and then let kill Lethalia the leftovers, it doesnt help that elves are weak in caves -> only useful units are weak gosts :(
actually i had till chapter 4 just 143 units losses (142 walking corpes and an elvish marksman from chapter 2(playing since turtorial)) and now my losses explode cos i have to deal with powerful foes nearly without powerful units :(
also why can efraim and lethalia recruit undead at all? when they do so, shouldnt they be marked as evil by other people?

i would prefer if you were to give an early finish bonus in "Revolution Begins" cos i just used the 55 turns to kill all leaders and lvl efraim and the loyal unit (kill enemy, end turn, kill enemy, end turn, kill enemy...)

EDIT: congrats for over 40000 views on your thread dugi :)
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vultraz
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by vultraz »

t3st3r wrote: 2) As for me, I can see quite many campaigns/maps with item systems/equipment/traders/artefacts/etc. It makes me to think that would be great if BfW would provide some "native" decent UI for unit information/equip/unequip dialogs, which would allow easy and obvious ways to deal with items/artefacts equipped by particular unit. Else campaigns authors forced to write ton of extra code and UI isn't very convenient. I think it should be part of BfW, at least some decent dialog for items management. Maybe I should try to file such feature request to bug tracker? I think it's really weird if campaign authors have to reinvent things like UI to manage artefacts from scratch.
Would you mean something like this? It's the Inventory dialog I made for my own campaign, the latest version of which is still under development.

I doubt the devs would accept such a feature in mainline, however. I'm not sure, you could ask. I might release my code for the inventory as a resource pack when I'm done.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Raijer
Thanks for the reports, I'll fix it.

@t3st3r
1) I completely agree with you, but I think that somebody suggested this in Ideas and I supported it, but the developers rejected it. Maybe if more of them got to play this campaign...

2) It would be useful to have some kind of native UI for items, yes. I was even thinking about making a resource pack for it.I have already created (though not finished) an RPG with a lot of stuff of this kind, native looking UIs for inventory, skills, advancing and so on, but I want to finish other things first. Also, it looks quite bad, because I don't know how to make it look graphically good.
I have not used it in LotI, because these UIs aren't properly documented, crash frequently without logical reasons and are generally extremely frustrating. I didn't want anybody else to mess up with it.

Regarding balance - in some scenarios, you will have to focus on some special recruits as a tactical puzzle, and the Army of Darkness scenario is an example of one. Or in Battle for Ogira, you can make it easy by spamming Lancers. Some others were intended to be like that, but aren't.
Staves - their behaviour is intentional. I might make them affect (or partially affect) touch attacks, but I am not persuaded that it is better than it is now. A staff should not convert a fairy or lich into a shaolin. I might be able to add staff attacks to these units, but it would be a lot of drawing.
Flying - I don't know why can bats fly over void. Really no idea. Flying boots enable units to fly over unwalkable terrains (or only to move faster through hard terrains, I can't remember), even if they don't have a proper flying animation (btw, Efraim has one, but it is unlocked when he gets an advancement that lets him fly over unwalkable).

I will write the replies to the rest soon, I have to go now.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

just as note, you wouldnt have to draw something for liches because they already carry a staff, just like mage of light
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

I wanted to edit my message, but well, it'll have to be a bit more chaotic.
Ancient lich carries a staff, yes, but he has no animation to attack with it, he uses a touch attack.

Continuing the reply:
Konrad2 wrote:if you are gonna do this pls inform me, because i will be eager to help balancing and searching for bugs if it speeds up the release of it in normal wesnoth
Not yet, the last chapter is not written yet and some parts of the code still have to be edited to remove temporary codes for retrospective compatibility, that would surely double the number of bugs. I will name the version 3.0.0 when I will have all features added. If you want, I might notify you then.
Konrad2 wrote:the hard part for me is when lethalia has to deal with Malin Keshar (poor guy), because i always used efraim to tank the damage and then let kill Lethalia the leftovers, it doesnt help that elves are weak in caves -> only useful units are weak gosts
Chapter 4 was intended to be mostly about recruiting than recalling and advancing.
You don't have to attack Malin Keshar, you just have to come near him.
In chapter 4 they raise undead because all they want is the destruction of wesnoth at any cost. They don't pretend to be the good guys, because foolish magi would not listen.
Konrad2 wrote:i would prefer if you were to give an early finish bonus in "Revolution Begins" cos i just used the 55 turns to kill all leaders and lvl efraim and the loyal unit (kill enemy, end turn, kill enemy, end turn, kill enemy...)
Isn't it followed by scenarios with another protagonist and then some leader-only scenarios? That would be odd if Efraim's quick victory helped Lethalia to recruit more elves.

@vultraz
I was thinking about making a resource pack like that too, but at the moment, I don't know how to arrange the GUIs graphically so that they would look good. Can you please send me the code for the appearance of the window you showed?
Anyway, I don't want it to me in LotI because it is outside WML and seriously hard (and really frustrating, I've spent days working on things like that) to do.
Konrad2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

@dugi actually it seemed to me that items i used on efraims units where avaible to Lethalias units, even when they were equipped
example: i gave this loyal guy in "revolution begins" the dagger "Chaosbringer", which i only had from
in the next scenario with lethalia, when i locked into my inventory, i could equip chaosbringer
if i were to use this bug as much as possible, would be able the replicate every item and hence have twice the amount of items
or do efraims units automatically unequip items before Lethalias scenario?
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

That is strange, because nothing is done with the inventory there. It just behaves like passing from one scenario into another, ignoring the change of leader.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by t3st3r »

vultraz wrote:Would you mean something like this? It's the Inventory dialog I made for my own campaign
Ideally, I would suggest some more advanced dialog, where unit and its equipment slots are pictured in some "arbitrary" way so you can see what slots of armor/weapons/other stuff are already equipped/missing/... and equip missing parts (if you have them), etc. Your current dialog does not gives any idea what else you can equip on that unit. You can see examples of such dialogs in dozens of RPG and strategy games implementing "artefacts" (items). Usually they're looking like picture of unit with equipment slots. So it's easy to, say, equip sword by putting it into hand of unit, or equip boots by selecting unit's feets and putting some boots on them, etc. Basically, Dugi has impletemted more or less common equipment system you can see in many games. The most annoying thing is lack of proper UI which would allow to manage things in more pleasant ways. Right now it's implemented as arbitrary dialogs called and created by scripts. As far as I understand, you can't create complicated custom dialogs with advanced custom layout from script?
I doubt the devs would accept such a feature in mainline, however.
Well, as for me it's very stupid, since I've seen dozen and half of various campaigns/maps/scenarios where items (or "artefacts" or how else they call it) are used and items system is somehow implemented. So it looks like if there is noticeable demand exists. But since BfW core does not really supports items and lacks UI to do so, it's being implemented by dozens of authors in their own, hackish ways. Advanced scripting on it's own is okay. However it looks like if it would work better if core would provide at least some boilerplate. Most notably, proper interactive UI dialogs, etc. So you can, say, equip sword from your inventory by selecting "hand" slot in dialog and then get something like drop-down list of suitable items to equip to this slot. Right now it seems to be impossible to do in really good ways with reasonable efforts. At least I never seen any scenarios where I would really like items management UI. I suspect it's a way too hard to implement non-standard custom layout and most notably, custom controls dualogs from scripts, right?
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