To Lands Unknown 3.9

[The Black Sword]

I see, well when I moved onto the armour to pick it up, I had no moves left. Next turn the farthest hex I can move to collapses, so I'm trapped. There were no hints at all that I would be trapped over there(apart from the "earth shakes" message or something like that but by then its too late). The idea that I have to move right up to the armour, wait a turn then take it and move back right away is counter-intuitive. What's the point anyway, all it will do is annoy the player(it annoyed me)?

Maybe have mephir predict the collapse of the bridge and push the start of the collapse back a turn? That would solve the problem and I don't see how it would detract from the scenario.

[hagabaka]

I see, well when I moved onto the armour to pick it up, I had no moves left. Next turn the farthest hex I can move to collapses, so I'm trapped. There were no hints at all that I would be trapped over there(apart from the "earth shakes" message or something like that but by then its too late). The idea that I have to move right up to the armour, wait a turn then take it and move back right away is counter-intuitive. What's the point anyway, all it will do is annoy the player(it annoyed me)?

Maybe have mephir predict the collapse of the bridge and push the start of the collapse back a turn? That would solve the problem and I don't see how it would detract from the scenario.

My understanding was that the bridge was held up by the powers of the armor, so moving the armor causes it to collapse. I was lucky and the scheduled moves made my character get the armor with most MP left, so he could outrun the collapse. Still I was worried the collapse could speed up later and kill the character, and the suspense actually helped make the scenario interesting for me. I agree it would be good to have a warning about the collapse. Maybe a unit first walking on the bridge would say "it's surprising how this narrow bridge is able to remain stable, as if being protected somehow".

[inferno8]

I agree it would be good to have a warning about the collapse. Maybe a unit first walking on the bridge would say "it's surprising how this narrow bridge is able to remain stable, as if being protected somehow".

I will put the message. It should help.

This is a masterpiece. This is what the mainline standard should have been, I dare to say.

Wow I don't know what to say. This is the best compliment I have ever heard although it is a heresy against our beloved BfW developers. Thank you

[mitom2]

I just tested Ka-Gatta. after opening the traps, there is no escape for the unit in the north trap. I did not have this before. while my testing I forgot the south trap, so I entered the traps in the order north, middle, south. this is where the bug first appeared. after that, also in the order south, middle, north the unit in the north trap was unable to move.

do you want me to upload a savegame or replay?

[edit]

the replay is somehow destroyed. you may have a savegame only.

[/edit]

also, when north is not the last trap - which became more possible in the shorter map now - Mehir still says, that the wall near the last trap is affected instead of the north trap.

CU TOM

[inferno8]

This is a bug. I put wrong coordinates for updated traps in the new map. I will release new version soon.

[bvanevery]

This is a masterpiece. This is what the mainline standard should have been, I dare to say.

Masterpieces aren't standard. You can't get this level of work out of all artists all the time, not for free at least. If someone long ago had said, all artwork has got to be at this level of polish, Wesnoth would have never gotten to where it is today. In fact if you look at early Wesnoth artwork it is quite crude. Be thankful that all the lackluster campaigns carried the ball forwards for long enough that this one could emerge. BTW my favorite mainline campaign is "Descent into Darkness" because it has the most interesting character arc. I'm not sure any of the others really have a character arc.

I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of replay value in this campaign.

I very much appreciate the possibility of non-random attacks. It makes final blows and leveling up troops a lot easier.

[bvanevery]

I see, well when I moved onto the armour to pick it up, I had no moves left. Next turn the farthest hex I can move to collapses, so I'm trapped. There were no hints at all that I would be trapped over there(apart from the "earth shakes" message or something like that but by then its too late). The idea that I have to move right up to the armour, wait a turn then take it and move back right away is counter-intuitive. What's the point anyway, all it will do is annoy the player(it annoyed me)?

Maybe have mephir predict the collapse of the bridge and push the start of the collapse back a turn? That would solve the problem and I don't see how it would detract from the scenario.

My understanding was that the bridge was held up by the powers of the armor, so moving the armor causes it to collapse. I was lucky and the scheduled moves made my character get the armor with most MP left, so he could outrun the collapse. Still I was worried the collapse could speed up later and kill the character, and the suspense actually helped make the scenario interesting for me. I agree it would be good to have a warning about the collapse. Maybe a unit first walking on the bridge would say "it's surprising how this narrow bridge is able to remain stable, as if being protected somehow".

It doesn't need to be telegraphed that much. The bridge looks like a friggin' trap. I mean, come on, it's really windy and narrow, and there's a powerful looking item at the end of it, on a special platform. Why wouldn't you expect a trap? The real problem is that the player runs out of moves. Make the terrain easier near the armor, so that anyone can get back on the bridge before it starts falling down.

[sur.nhm]

[...]

I very much appreciate the possibility of non-random attacks. It makes final blows and leveling up troops a lot easier.

That's FPI No. 1. Also, what

There should be a 'deterministic', 'non random' mode
Background: some people, apparently frustrated at losing their units in random battles, feel that there should be a non-random way of playing the game.
Result: the developers feel that randomness is a large part of the game, and that taking the randomness out of the game would be somewhat akin to taking the randomness out of most card games.

See?

[inferno8]

I have just noticed your edits, bvanevery. Here's my reply:

I expected the spider to come attack my guys on the mainland, but it didn't. It just ran down the causeway. Is this by design? If so, please don't do that, it's really irritating.

No, it's not. I can't explain why it happened.

With the causeway along the main route, I would also move the northeast statue downwards into the now empty space, get rid of the top half of the map, and rearrange the passages and artifacts so that they can all be gathered in less time. That way the statue artwork isn't any smaller, but the scenario is smaller.

I like this idea. I will rearrange the map, but not in the next release. I need more time for this, and there are bugs that have to be fixed immediately.

In Scenario 10, "Message," I note that the code says that recruitment is allowed, but I do not see anywhere on the map that I can actually recruit from.

You cannot recruit in this scenario.

Because the illusion is reasonably well set up and paid off, it's not necessary to get into Tashkar's character anymore

That's great.

Misfeature: my gold is taxed after non-combat scenarios such as "A New Leader." Also I am taxed after "Message,"

Thanks for reporting.

Just recall everyone in Saffros proper. I suppose that the limited amount of recruitment hexes is deliberate. Who cares if it's realistic that the army walked through the rain or not? The army is with Mehir one way or another no matter what's going on, it doesn't need to be realistic. I would say that the southern 1/3 of the map is unnecessary. The lake to the southeast of Saffros could be the ocean, that's where you could put the boats and have everyone disembark. The same dialogue can be uttered between Atiros and his countryman. Saffros could be just as thankful to have Mehir arrive.

You're right. I'll do this.

Why make the player level up a Wonderful Jinn to build a wall around Saffros? The battle is over before it'll do any good.

I don't know. I will remove this objective.

Why can a Grand Summoner conjure Fire and Water elementals, but Mehir as a Summons Master cannot?

This is a bug.

Why does it cost more to Recruit a Rhami (13g) than to Summon a Rhami (12g) ?

Summoning is cheaper because of movement and attack penalty.

Spoiler:

why does Rashti "die" ?

Because the level designer wanted to make another finishing-blow-animation.

Furthermore, why does Rashti live after she dies? There's no explanation for that at all. Every other scenario I've played, when Rashti dies she just dies. This time she lives by splitting in half, for no explicable reason.

There is a reason. That time she was precisely split in half.

Why can this dufus stand on top of the gate of Kharos and sneer at everybody, as though he will never suffer a consequence? Kharosian soldiers chopped him up and turned him into bats, why can't they do it again?

They killed the illusion. The Master of Darkness was sitting on that tower all the time.

This rewrite tries to keep the comedic nature of your story. I differentiate Guru from Aerius by their attitudes towards Mehir and the circumstances.

Now it looks much better. Thanks again! Your feedback is invaluable.

[bvanevery]

I expected the spider to come attack my guys on the mainland, but it didn't. It just ran down the causeway. Is this by design? If so, please don't do that, it's really irritating.

No, it's not. I can't explain why it happened.

What's needed is some kind of WML "aggression setting." I don't know if such a WML setting exists. All enemies in Ka-Gatta should be aggressive.

Why make the player level up a Wonderful Jinn to build a wall around Saffros? The battle is over before it'll do any good.

I don't know. I will remove this objective.

Dramatically it's a neat idea to have Jinns building walls for you. If you made it a Great Jinn instead of a Wonderful Jinn, then the goal can definitely be accomplished in a useful time. That may not seem "realistic" but it works as a play mechanic. I still think you're never going to need this wall though; see my long writeup of playing the campaign on Hard.

Regarding the Gates of Kharos:

Spoiler:

Furthermore, why does Rashti live after she dies? There's no explanation for that at all. Every other scenario I've played, when Rashti dies she just dies. This time she lives by splitting in half, for no explicable reason.

There is a reason. That time she was precisely split in half.

The audience doesn't know that. This needs to be shown somehow. The most dramatic way to do it, would be to have the Master of Darkness cut her exactly in half. Now let's say for sake of argument you actually wanted to do all that animation work. Why should Rashti be cut in half? There's no dramatic basis for Rashti to suddenly become "wimpy," it hasn't been set up at all. There's no gameplay basis either, as Rashti's stats are somewhat higher than the Master's: (86 HP + regeneration) vs. 66 HP in my last game. You need to set up that the Master has an unusual ability to cut things precisely in half. Let's see him cut something else in half.

Also: plot hole. If the Master cut Rashti precisely in half, why does her limp ragdoll body fall to the ground whole? Care to explain that one away? I'm teasing, but my point is, you are telling the audience various things with your animations.

If you don't actually want to do perfect battle chopping animations, you could change the metaphysical basis of Rashti's dissolution. I assumed that the Master had ripped her two souls apart by arcane means. She already had a split personality, it's been abundantly established elsewhere in the story. Half-good, half-evil. The Master simply has some darkness-void way of making evil become really evil. This needs setup as well; you need it to happen to someone else before it happens to Rashti. For instance, you could have the Master turn some of the Kharosians evil inside the city. Then they could fight each other, and if it went on indefinitely, then Anthi could actually get killed. It would add some danger; as it is, it looks like that huge city full of Kharosians should be able to summarily deal with one puny Master. I think the correct timing would be, the Master starts turning people evil once he's on top of the gate. That way, we've already done the whole "gate opens, gate closes" surprise and we don't have the "turning evil" schtick complicating it. Let's face it the Master does need a next move, is he supposed to just stand up there and wait to die? He could monologue, something like "You cannot vanquish me, you are not pure, evil cannot defeat evil, the evil among you are mine." I'll write something better if you're interested in going in this direction.

Why can this dufus stand on top of the gate of Kharos and sneer at everybody, as though he will never suffer a consequence? Kharosian soldiers chopped him up and turned him into bats, why can't they do it again?

They killed the illusion. The Master of Darkness was sitting on that tower all the time.

I don't think "illusion" is the right word. The Master of Darkness kills plenty of people on the battlefield, which means this "illusion" has deadly substance. The witch's illusion has no substance, it occurs entirely within Mehir's mind. The Nomolas illusion is sufficiently unreal that Aerius does not even move his lips. You expect me to believe that illusions can't handle lips, but can handle chopping people up with scythes? If you claim the Master has a "projection" on the battlefield, intellectually I would accept that. However, what it actually looks like, is the Master is physically on the battlefield, transforms into bats in "Dracula" fashion when he dies, and flies up to the top of the gate, as bats are inclined to do. Well ok the bats die so I guess they didn't fly anywhere, but dramatically, you're telling the audience that "this is about flying." If you want to tell the audience something else, if the "projection" nature of the Master is important to you, then you need to set it up to pay it off. For instance, you could have some kind of energy connectivity between a projection and its originator. If it were my story I'd forget the bats and have bolts of weird evil energy shoot up to the top of the tower. I'd have a series of projections on the battlefield, with a bolt going up the tower every time one of the projections is destroyed. Do that a few times and finally Mehir notices what's going on, then commands Rashti to intervene.

[bvanevery]

[...]

I very much appreciate the possibility of non-random attacks. It makes final blows and leveling up troops a lot easier.

That's FPI No. 1. Also, what

There should be a 'deterministic', 'non random' mode
Background: some people, apparently frustrated at losing their units in random battles, feel that there should be a non-random way of playing the game.
Result: the developers feel that randomness is a large part of the game, and that taking the randomness out of the game would be somewhat akin to taking the randomness out of most card games.

See?

See what? Are you trying to start a pointless debate? Let me end it for you right now: IMO inferno's take on the rules are better than mainline's. It's a pity that this means his work, whose production values are a step above anything in Wesnoth, will never be mainlined. You are entitled to your own opinion, and the two sides are never going to "see" eye to eye. The core developers are on one side of this divide, and I don't personally have the energy to fork the Wesnoth sources. As much as I like the game, I've got my own games to write. I've noticed some forks of Wesnoth sitting around on GNA gathering dust. I also don't happen to like the GPL, I would never put large amounts of my energy into that. I don't like multiplayer either. I'm into "Wesnoth as RPG."

[inferno8]

Spoiler:

If the Master cut Rashti precisely in half, why does her limp ragdoll body fall to the ground whole?

Whole? I don't think so:

I think the animation speed is too high to notice this...

you could have the Master turn some of the Kharosians evil inside the city.

No, he can't hypnotize. Frankly speaking, I don't see any problems with the Master. Rashti couldn't defend in flight and the Master took the opportunity. In my opinion explanations are unnecessary here. I think we should leave players with the mystery about this situation. I really don't want to change this part.

[bvanevery]

Regarding the Gates of Kharos:

Spoiler:

I think the animation speed is too high to notice this...

Yep, too high, and the parts aren't clearly separated. Make the 2 parts fall in different places if you want clarity.

you could have the Master turn some of the Kharosians evil inside the city.

No, he can't hypnotize.

What I suggested is not hypnosis. It is soul rending. My theory: the Master can rend any soul that is at least partly evil already. He does it to corrupt Kharosians for awhile. He can't do it to all Kharosians because they are not all corrupt. Then he does it to Rashti.

Also for sake of argument, why can't he hypnotize? Lesser witches did it to Mehir in Mag Magar, and at that time Mehir was significantly more powerful than most of the inhabitants of Kharos.

Frankly speaking, I don't see any problems with the Master. Rashti couldn't defend in flight and the Master took the opportunity. In my opinion explanations are unnecessary here. I think we should leave players with the mystery about this situation. I really don't want to change this part.

I see a problem in general with the pattern of your thinking. You are very close to your story, so you know all of its details. The audience doesn't, and you haven't explained all of those details. Sometimes it creates wonderment, other times it creates confusion. Especially, if you've created rules earlier about how things work, and then you violate your own rules. As a reader I have no reason to believe that Rashti can't defend herself in flight. You've never once in the game advanced such an idea, and you've shown once before that she can fly up and kick someone's butt. To quote Mehir, "Indeed, only an ultimate entity could have done something like that." Is she ultimate or ordinary? You may not like what I am saying here, but the problem is Rashti's death is not credible. It's not a problem with the Master, it's a problem with Rashti. The Master is simply a vehicle for portraying Rashti.

You know, you're in good company as far as "combat in flight" explanations. In Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith, Anakin and Obi Wan are having this huge duel on a lava planet. Despite everything we've ever learned about the Force in all the other movies, all the stuff about it's all in your mind, the Force partially controls your actions but also obeys your commands and whatnot, levitating X-Wings out of swamps etc., we're told that Gravity really is the key combat differentiator after all.

Obi-Wan: It's over Anakin, I have the high ground.
Anakin Skywalker: You underestimate my power!
Obi-Wan: Don't try it.

The physical explanation here is totally lame. The emotional explanation is ok though: Anakin has been pissed about his own power, his own failings, vs. his Master's power and the Jedi order for 2 movies now. Anakin gets his legs cut off because of his character flaw. Just don't look too closely at the tactical explanation which makes no sense whatsoever. Similarly, Rashti is killed because she has two halves, not because she can't fight while flying.

Does Rashti's death need to be credible? Strictly speaking, from a screenwriting standpoint it doesn't. You can fudge all sorts of plot holes as long as you keep the pace moving fast enough. For instance, I knew a hardcore sci-fi guy who objected vehemently to the scene in The Matrix where they reveal humans are being used as batteries. He said it's totally stupid, you can't get more energy out of human beings than you put in. But the point of the scene was to go "Boo!" and scare the audience, then move along quickly to something else. Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain. If you go fast enough, people won't notice the plot holes until much later, if ever. Alfred Hitchcock called this "the icebox moment." It's when the filmgoer is standing in front of his icebox, making a sandwich, when suddenly something about the movie really bugs him. It didn't bug him at the time he watched it, probably because he didn't have time or inclination to be bugged by it.

Rashti is like that. The "icebox moment" is that Rashti the ultimate entity is too powerful to simply be slapped down by the Master like a ragdoll.

[Kapoue_II]

As a thought, maybe you could make rashtis LOF as a 2-part animation? First part she leaps, then it pauses, the master says some funny magic words, maybe the screen flashes black , does his attack aninmation towards rashti, then she completes the leap, and bounces off and splits etc.

[bvanevery]

Serious Bug: on Sun Dome I have one unit in my Recall inventory. Just one Dharma'Rhami. I sure as heck had lots more units than that before! I also lost 3 Novice Summoners between Chaos and Mag Magar. Something is seriously wrong with the Recall code. Is this because of the code that counts dead units?

Bug: in Sun Dome, after I've summoned an air elemental using the ultimate circle, when I move Mehir afterwards, I cannot undo his move. Is the Summoning code interfering with normal movement code, making it undoable?