Onslaught - Version 1.7.0.

[Mountain_King]

Young lord Radvar Relvanar, along with his mentor, Sir Timothar, and their friend, Sir Ravix, are sent to an outpost that has not been heard from in weeks. What they find is less than pleasant...

That is a true description, is it not? I seem to recall all those things happening in the campaign. (you did know you can skip all dialogue with the escape key, right?)

For someone like me, it feels like you try to convince us to become Christian,

I think that was Crushmaster's idea.

which can offend an atheistic player.

How is an atheist offended by a God he doesn't believe in? Not all share those sentiments. Allow me to quote an atheist on this:

(In speaking of Christians) If you truly believe you know how to get eternal life, how could you NOT share that with everyone you meet? (emphasis mine)

*instantly vanishes before everybody starts freaking out like the trolls they are*

[Darkmage]

Well, so far I have stopped lurking in the forums to reply this topic.

First of all, I want to keep clear that I'm not trying to offend anyone.(And I do not want to be saved.)

The moment I downloaded the campaign I did expect to be somehow related to christianty(For I saw crushmaster as author and he's well known for that.), it, overall, did not worry me, let's say some fiction books have also those ideas shown in a way; but in this campaign it is too much evident, I mean, you just do not even worry to change it's names. You could, at least, change the name and instead of saying god you could use eloh(It is just an example taken from UtBS).

Appart from using "Bible" "God" "Jews" "Christians" you just narrate the same story, you locate the jews to the evil(and hipocrytical) side while christians are the true followers; the coincidences start me to scare a bit, you could just have named that "new kingdom" they foundate "promised land" or "Jerusalem", just in case no one before noticed what was the story about, to add a tiny bit of realism.(Just some sarcasm.)

At this point, I see a jew might be offended for beign qualified as evil.(That's only for the introduction, but it also may offend.)

What's more, you culd have set it more like this way:

The (good ones) believed in (supernatural entity), as the (evil ones) did; but the (evil ones) did not recognize (spuernatural entity) when they saw.
Just changing "good ones" with Irithians(or any other random name), "evil ones" with Anorthians, and "supernatural entity" with Thian. Could just have changed the whole taste of the introduction.

What I meant to say is that you stick too much into chirstian beliefs and history, and that is not fun because sometimes it feels like cheap, there's not any new story to tell, you take a religion textbook and it could be the same story. You can praise your religion, but do not offend others' and, try to praise in an original way.

...... Break, I use debug to go trhought the dialogues of the 1st and 2nd scenarios, I pass through the chit chat 3rd scenario ......

I changed my opinion in a more irrtable way:

One thing is to use religion as a somewhat background or even to dedicate the plot into a religious conflict, and other thing is just to PREACH, you are not trying to convince that poor Lieutenant into the Christianity of the plot, YOU are trying to convince the player into adhering the Christianity of the Real World, pardon me, but time ago one user got banned AND his add-ons deleted from the server because of political propaganda about Communism, Jinaraaka IIRC(MacBookAir in the add-ons server), and using Real World history(And I completely agree with that decision); what I see in your campaign is just Religious Propaganda. For you to know, many versions ago, the damage "holy" was replaced with "arcane" just for the policy of making wesnoth the less religiously involved, even, when LordBob was creating his (awsome) portraits of the horsemen line he was asked to change the paladin's breastplate drawings to make it less religious appealing(Before it was a cross[in a way] now it is a greek cross with a circle instead of crossing).


For what I've read from you, you have "discovered" the truth from god and try to "save" other people; bear in mind that some people just do not like to get "evangelized", "saved" or "aided". Personally, I have enough in Real World.

Try to look it by the other side, imagine I create a campaign; Woud you like it to be about Satanism, Islamism, Nazism, Anarchism or merciless crusaders who slain populations? No, definetly you wouldn't, and I'm certain it would sooner or later get erased for the add-ons server and I would get some call into order from the Mods. That is the reason of why this game has wisely chosen to keep itself away from Reality, which in most cases means away from flamewars and trouble.

... Ok, I just debugged the game until the end. ...

Surprise! It appears to happen that the author has written something and after finishing the campaign encourages the player to read it, so, let's do it. Nice, it's a brief text about how happy you are of the creation of this campaign, congratulations if you accept them form an atheist not willing to follow your path; but then you give us (the players) a link to a webpage, the same you have on your signature if my deducing capabilities still in good shape, well, I doubt that can be done, but let's give a try to the webpage; more of the same, a link to a "How to be a god's serf and gain eternity on heaven." NICE, more Religious Propaganda, but now, not in the campaign, not even in something playable in wesnoth, or that helps to the player to keep track of the development(As changelogs do.), it is just a link to a webpage whose access was encouraged after finishing the campaign, so, if the player hasn't been convinced of the christian beliefs, oh, nevermind, let's give them more!

I strongly recomend to, at least, categorize the campaign as catholic, or warn the people to make them know what they are playing, as well as some others involving, only for 1 message, sex or "mature content" do warn before playing.

I think that was Crushmaster's idea.

Yeah, I wonder so, but, as said before, that is propaganda, and so far, some other add-ons have been erased for doing as this campaign does; even more this one actively tries to catch you into that with non related to game links, the one I told about. Roughly said, I feel like Crushmaster is using wesnoth's openess to hook believers in an unpleasant way.(For me is ok if he has that link in his signature or behaves acording to his beliefs, but do not spread either political or religious ideas via add-ons server.)

How is an atheist offended by a God he doesn't believe in? Not all share those sentiments.

Well and atheist or a religious person can get offended when day by day, someone is trying to adoctrinate him, either in Real or in Virtual Life, and then all of a sudden he finds that somebody is trying to evangelize him using a game that tries his most not to touch any religious or political issue/theme because of respect to all others.


Well, at first I said I did not want to hurt anybody, I still don't want to, but I fear some will have been, I can't help with that, I tried to soften myself and only to expose objectively(Or at least tried it.) the issues, that appart from being unpleasant for me, do not fix with properly with the policy related to add-ons.(Maybe there's no such policy, but I misundestood some actions.)

As a final note, just imagine the campaign develops all the way around, the characters are satanics who praise how is good their cult/religion is, and how they defeat the God believers. It could have the same development as Onslaught has(Tweaked in a way or two). It won't have been nicely recieved, and shut down. But I guess it depends on the side you look live from.

Well, now I am repeating myself, if a mod sees like I am breaking the Code of Conduct, feel free to either warn me via PM or just erase the post.

[Crushmaster]

Onslaught's purpose is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I cannot convince, persuade, make anyone a Christian. Only God can save people, not I. I am merely a beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

I am not a Catholic, I am a Fundamentalist.

There are no anti-Semitic comments. I suppose you are referring to this:

The religious leaders claimed to be godly, but, instead, they were hypocrites, and held to the doctrines of men rather than those of God. These men, although falsely, claimed to be Jews, followers of God, and were supposedly waiting for the Messiah. However, He condemned them, and they killed Him. But, enough of that. You will learn more about all this later. Let me tell you now of the current state of this grand Kingdom.

There is no reason Onslaught should have a disclaimer. If religious content offends you extremely, you do not have to even begin the game, you may just finish up the first story part, exit, and delete the add-on. I do not want anyone to do that, as I want them to hear the Gospel, but it is their choice.

Thank you for your input.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[Astoria]

Onslaught's purpose is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I cannot convince, persuade, make anyone a Christian. Only God can save people, not I. I am merely a beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

I am not a Catholic, I am a Fundamentalist.

There are no anti-Semitic comments. I suppose you are referring to this:

The religious leaders claimed to be godly, but, instead, they were hypocrites, and held to the doctrines of men rather than those of God. These men, although falsely, claimed to be Jews, followers of God, and were supposedly waiting for the Messiah. However, He condemned them, and they killed Him. But, enough of that. You will learn more about all this later. Let me tell you now of the current state of this grand Kingdom.

There is no reason Onslaught should have a disclaimer. If religious content offends you extremely, you do not have to even begin the game, you may just finish up the first story part, exit, and delete the add-on. I do not want anyone to do that, as I want them to hear the Gospel, but it is their choice.

Thank you for your input.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Well, that IS anti-semitic. Also, a game is not the best way to spread religious propaganda. People who want to find "God" (yes, I am referring to any god, not the christian one.) already did it or are going to do it. This campaign doesn't make me want to become christian. The campaign does the opposite of what you want, it scares people away.

[Gambit]

I think most authors of any work in any medium would like you to walk away feeling something. Those individuals who do not like the feeling it is trying to impart should consider it all as fanciful as Uria. (Aren't atheists supposed to do that already?)

So I propose we get back to discussing the game inside its own context. There is no evidence [presented so far in this thread] that the campaign tries to break the fourth wall, except for the narrator — who's job it is to be telling we players a story — and the author wishing that something would get through to us. And even if it did break the fourth wall, it does no harm, and breaks no rules. There's also no evidence of racism or religious intolerance.
—————
Crushmaster, my only suggestion would be to make the narrator less personal. I think in most campaigns the narrator is a book. Yours feels like I'm in the same room with a person telling me this story. It is strange.

[Darkmage]

Onslaught's purpose is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In other words, evangelize. --> http://www.wordreference.com/definition/evangelize

So here I have a question. Can Wesnoth be used as a evangelization tool?

So I propose we get back to discussing the game inside its own context.

Agreed. Let's supose certain words as Cristians, God, Satan, etcetera, are used as Unia or Eloh are in other add-ons.(Although it is still evident the use they have, since the author said it is the purpouse.)

There's also no evidence of racism or religious intolerance.

Well, the part of the Jews and all was maybe my fault to write, they are only called hypocrites and phoneys, but they are not supposed to be Real Life jews, but the jews from the plot. And is not strictly offensive.(kind of strange sarcasm and irony)

There is no evidence [presented so far in this thread] that the campaign tries to break the fourth wall, except for the narrator — who's job it is to be telling we players a story — and the author wishing that something would get through to us.

As far as I know, the fourth wall is the barrier between fiction and reality, let's see:

Spoiler:

Dialoge taken from code:

Code: Select all

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Exactly. Listen to what Jehovah's Word says about liars..."
        [/message]

        [message]
           id=Sir Timothar
           message=_ "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "That's Revelation 21:8."
        [/message]

And here's a link wich links that to reality:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Code: Select all

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Listen to what Jehovah's Word says about thieves..."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "I've never been drunk, or fornicated, or extorted...or committed adultery."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Ravix, have you ever lusted after a beautiful woman?"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "Umm...well..."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "Yes. I have."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Jehovah's Word says, 'You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.' If the woman was married, you committed adultery in your heart with her; and if she wasn't, you committed fornication."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "Hmm..."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "We're all guilty, Ravix."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "Sir Ravix, have you ever hated anyone?"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "Yes. In the past."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "Jehovah's Word says, 'Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ ". . . . . ."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Have you ever used God's Name as a swear word, Ravix?"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "Yes...I have...Even...recently."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "The Bible calls that blasphemy. It says, 'You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His Name in vain.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "That even includes saying it when there's no need to. For, 'But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ ". . . . . ."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "Sir Ravix, according to God's Standard, the Ten Commandments, you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, murderer at heart, as well as a fornicator and most likely adulterer, and you're going to have to face Him, Who is fully holy and just, on Judgment Day. What do you think your eternal destiny is going to be - Heaven, or Hell? For, 'Whoever was not written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "Well, Radvar...I have to say...Hell."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "Does that concern you?"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "It doesn't just concern me, it's driving me mad!"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "Then hear the Word of the Lord." 
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "His Word says, 'There is none righteous; no, not one.' And, 'For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.' It also says, 'For the wages of sin are death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "The Lord Jesus Himself said, 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: No man comes to the Father but by Me.' His Word also says, 'He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "Listen to this: 'For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.'" 
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "I see...but...doesn't God...love everyone?" 
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "He cannot love everyone, Ravix; for man is evil! His Word says, 'You [God] hate all workers of iniquity.'" 
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "But God is rich in grace and mercy, and is willing to save those Who repent and believe - those He has chosen. He sent His Son to die, and He rose again, to save us. For, 'Except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.' And, 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "Exactly. We are a chosen people! Jesus came to die for 'His sheep', the Church [see John 10 and Ephesians 5]."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "I...I want to be saved. How? How? Tell me how! I know I am a sinner, that I have offended a holy God, and have refused His grace and mercy, His forgiveness, His salvation. How can I be saved? I must know!"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "The Bible says, 'For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "'But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "If you believe with all your heart, you may. For, 'Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, Ravix. To repent means to turn from your sins; go in a new direction. For, 'Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?' Also, 'Excepts you repent, you shall all likewise perish.'"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ ". . . . . ."
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Sir Ravix
            message=_ "He has done it! I am saved! All fear has left me! I now know where I shall spend eternity. Praise God for saving my soul!"
        [/message]

        [message]
            id=Radvar
            message=_ "All glory to God! Another sinner made a new creature in Christ [see 2 Corinthians 5:17]."
        [/message]

For most of that I can't give you exactly any reference since I do not know where are those bible's passages, but it is clear that those are extracts form Real World bible, and gives you a passage I'm giving you now: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Also a passage I did overlook: [see John 10 and Ephesians 5]

Code: Select all

        [message]
            speaker=narrator
            image=wesnoth-icon.png
            message=_ "Thank you for playing my campaign, <i>Onslaught</i>. I ask that you would please read the text document enclosed in the campaign's folder (in the add-ons directory), entitled 'A Word From The Campaign Creator.' Thank you, and I hoped you enjoyed playing."
        [/message]


Then I open the file:

I hope you enjoy it, and I hope that, perhaps, it does much more than bring you pleasure.



If you have any comments, please visit http://forums.wesnoth.org and check out the Scenario & Campaign Development forum, where Onslaught has its development topic.

In Christ,

Crushmaster.

http://www.areyouagoodperson.org

Then there is a link even out of wesnoth, ok, it does not exactly appear during the game until it is finished but it "takes place" while you do play, hence it is part of the campaign

I think that's enough evidence of it tearing down the 4th wall.

I am a Fundamentalist.

For that I guess you won't change any content since it would change what bible says, and that's a sin...(Am I wrong?)

And even if it did break the fourth wall, it does no harm, and breaks no rules.

For what I understood it depises humosexuals.

Code: Select all

[message]
            id=Sir Timothar
            message=_ "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
        [/message]
...

        [message]
           id=Sir Timothar
           message=_ "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
        [/message]

Through a detailed search, it won't likely "break the rules", but it is clearly religious propaganda with a HUGE resemblance to christianity, so I ask again:

Can Wesnoth be used as a(n) evangelization/propagandistic tool?

[Gambit]

The fourth wall is broken when characters are speaking directly to the audience.
The characters in the plot reference the bible, despise homosexuals, and insult Jews. Just as American soldiers in the plots of every war game in history have insulted and despised Germans.

What you want to discuss "Can Wesnoth be used as a(n) evangelization/propagandistic tool?" should be done elsewhere by the people actually in charge of these things, and you should not be interrupting the development of this campaign until those people have been made aware and decided.

[Crushmaster]

Crushmaster, my only suggestion would be to make the narrator less personal. I think in most campaigns the narrator is a book. Yours feels like I'm in the same room with a person telling me this story. It is strange.

Actually, I think that was somewhat my intention. I don't know exactly why, I just like it that way. I think I might should give him a name or something, though; i.e., he's one of the joint-rulers of the kingdom.

Thanks for your comment, and for stepping in.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[Captain_Wrathbow]

Yours feels like I'm in the same room with a person telling me this story. It is strange.

There's always the story in UtBS, which is Kaleh talking in first-person.

[TangoMan]

I've found the conversation about the content of this particular campaign most interesting, but I'm avoiding that now because there's actually a problem I'm running into with this.

I'm in The Onslaught and I've made my moves for turn 9 and every time it gets to Graln Delkor's time to move, it crashes.

To deal with this, I saved the game partially through my moves, then tried to save it after each of the enemy made their moves, so I have a saved version just before Graln Delkor makes his move. I load it and let him start and it crashes.

I'm using Wesnoth 1.8.3. I don't know how to identify which version of the Onslaught campaign I'm using, but I just downloaded it within the past 2-3 weeks. I'm on OS X 10.6.4.

I can upload the saved game files for this move as well as post the crash report I get from the OS or send both directly to someone.

[Crushmaster]

I've found the conversation about the content of this particular campaign most interesting, but I'm avoiding that now because there's actually a problem I'm running into with this.

I'm in The Onslaught and I've made my moves for turn 9 and every time it gets to Graln Delkor's time to move, it crashes.

To deal with this, I saved the game partially through my moves, then tried to save it after each of the enemy made their moves, so I have a saved version just before Graln Delkor makes his move. I load it and let him start and it crashes.

I'm using Wesnoth 1.8.3. I don't know how to identify which version of the Onslaught campaign I'm using, but I just downloaded it within the past 2-3 weeks. I'm on OS X 10.6.4.

I can upload the saved game files for this move as well as post the crash report I get from the OS or send both directly to someone.

Hmm. Thanks for the comment. That is so weird. I've played through every scenario probably at least two or three times...It's never crashed for me.
EDIT: Sorry, wasn't thinking. Scenario one crashed some for me in the past, but it's fine now. Don't think any others have.

As for identifying the version: Go to the campaign's folder, and click on the text document entitled, "A Word From The Campaign Creator." In that, I should mention it.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[TangoMan]

It's version 1.6.0.

If there's a newer version (looks it, see the thread title is 1.7.0, so it must be fairly recent), is there any way to preserve the progress I've made, or would I have to start over?

And would any save game files or crash reports help?

[Crushmaster]

It's version 1.6.0.

Ahh, thanks.

If there's a newer version (looks it, see the thread title is 1.7.0, so it must be fairly recent), is there any way to preserve the progress I've made, or would I have to start over?

I wish I knew. I think it may be, but I don't know how.

Hmm. I do have one idea...You could download 1.7.0., delete scenario six of 1.6.0., copy scenario six from 1.7.0., and paste it in the scenario folder. That may make it work.

And would any save game files or crash reports help?

If you could provide that one save file (the one you saved before it crashed), I'd appreciate it. I'd like to see if crashes when I do it.

Regarding crash reports: Possibly. Thank you for the offer.

Thanks for your comments. Really appreciate it. I hope it'll work flawlessly now.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[Nihil]

Wow.

How fast we've gone from NRIW to "ok, let's use Wesnoth as a proselytising tool!"
It's not even subtle, it's not even an advocacy of moderate christianism, but an openly creationist piece by a self-proclaimed fundie.
How can this be tolerated?


I am deeply disgusted by this campaign: the very thought that impressionable young minds can be subjected to such indoctrination while playing a game leaves me nauseous.


Maybe should we start work on a counter-campaign that promotes critical thinking and reason?

[doofus-01]

How can this be tolerated?

A reluctance to censor is understandable, I would think. Honest question: Were you caught unaware by this campaign? It is possible that some campaigns need to revise their descriptions, so that everyone knows what they are getting into. The description of this campaign, at least as seen at addons.wesnoth.org, does not give much warning.