1.12 SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

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shisui
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by shisui »

Scenario: "Tomahawk"

Rescuing Montas before placing the bomb results in a loss, because Montas can no longer be rescued when that victory condition is triggered.

YET, to me, the rescue should come first because Montas' guard will attack Wyngilla when he approaches the tower. (Your current way to avoid this does not make sense to me.)

*** My suggestions for fixing this could reasonably considered a spoiler ***
[spoiler]Suggestion 1 -- the bomb
1) The tower should not have a ZOC so that Wyngilla can leave (under player control) on the turn that Wyngilla arrives.
2) Wyngilla, when placing the bomb, says - "Everyone move away from the tower so that I can blow up the bomb."
3) When Wyngilla moves away from the tower, blow it up.
4) Give a 20 damage hit to anything still adjacent to the tower ?

Suggestion 2 -- Victory Conditions
Give the player all of the victory conditions at the start of the scenario
1) Blow up Tomahawk before Turn 7
2) Rescue Montas
3) Defeat all enemy leaders
THEN, the player can decide how to approach the problem in their own way.

The consequences of completing condition 1 & 2 should be changed.

The current consequences for completing the 1st victory condition are actually a response to seeing a threat to release Montas. They should be triggered when the guard moves as that is a good test of a rescue effort.

We now need new consequences for destroying Tomahawk. Suppose Gushnak suspects treachery when his nifty new weapon is destroyed. He might create an assassin or a dire wolf rider to kill the treasonous bandit dwarf (if still alive) & start a new camp in the back centre with that unit as the new leader. The remaining bandit dwarfs can now become hostile to all other colours = most of them will fight the drakes, but not all & it gets them off the map quickly.[/spoiler]
Last edited by shisui on December 8th, 2009, 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SkyOne
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by SkyOne »

shisui, thanks so much for playing and reporting not only FoaP, also this one.
shisui wrote:1) In "Dwarvish Bandits", when Dultas dismounts from his gryphon, he keeps his airborne hit points. This reduces to full hits at the beginning of "Hidden Cave".
Yes, yes! I know it. I planed to fix it on one day, but I did other parts first because it was not serious. However, it seems relating to the next one which is more serious.
shisui wrote:2) More serious -- although Dultas' unit description (as expected) indicates deep water impassible, he actually has a terrain cost of 1 in deep water. [see screen shot]
I have never recognized it when I tested it. Thank you so much for reporting. I have to refer to fix it. Probably, the movement_cost is Dultas, but movement_type is still Gryphon. (hopefully, it is a bug for 1.7. I will check it in 1.6.)

Edit: Dultas is fine in 1.6, but I am not sure why it happens in 1.7, yet. Probably, something in the TRANSFORM_UNIT macro has a bug(s). Now, I start worrying the other parts that I have installed the same code.
shisui wrote:Rescuing Montas before placing the bomb results in a loss, because Montas can no longer be rescued when that victory condition is triggered.
Oh, that is right. I have never considered to rescue Montas first on the scenario, but you must be right. Players would love to rescue him first.
shisui wrote:YET, to me, the rescue should come first because Montas' guard will attack Wyngilla when he approaches the tower. (Your current way to avoid this does not make sense to me.)

*** My suggestions for fixing this could reasonably considered a spoiler ***
Spoiler:
These are very good ideas. They sound more games. I will try to develop them on your suggested ways, but I am not a programmer in my entire life, so let me get some times to figure out how to do it. Hopefully, it won't take too long.
shisui wrote:We now need new consequences for destroying Tomahawk. Suppose Gushnak suspects treachery when his nifty new weapon is destroyed. He might create an assassin or a dire wolf rider to kill the treasonous bandit dwarf (if still alive) & start a new camp in the back centre with that unit as the new leader. The remaining bandit dwarfs can now become hostile to all other colours = most of them will fight the drakes, but not all & it gets them off the map quickly.
Sure! That sounds good and makes the scenario more interesting. Also, it is under my ability for coding. But let me find out the way to solve two previous bugs first. Balancing three team scenario is more difficult than two team scenario. (how was Hydra Cavern on FoaP? I have struggled for long time to balance it.)

Anyway, I really appreciate your comments and suggestions.:smile:
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shisui
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by shisui »

Since you like the "Treachary" idea --

(1) Suppose the bomb destroys all units adjacent to the tower
--> then you know the sandy field is empty, just begging for a new base camp.

In this case, at the start of the scenario, Dultas should warn Wyngilla that Tomahawk will blow up real purty "when Wyngilla moves away from the bomb". That warns the player that it detonates when you leave & that it might not be safe to leave units on the sand.

Of course, a canny player could tempt Montas' guard or some bandits onto the sand before blowing up the bomb.

(2) Probably the most interesting new camp would be goblin cavalry -- Pillagers' & Dire wolves' abilities to slow & poison will encourage Wyngilla to deploy the drakes much more carefully; although on "easy", you might want to restrict the goblin's gold.

"Balancing a 3 team scenario" should not be a large problem. Since the bandit leader has already been assaassinated (either by Wyngilla or the new goblin leader), they will not last long. Mostly, the remaining bandits will keep the goblins and the drakes apart from each other for a turn or two -- allowing Wyngilla to respond more effectively. Ie: he might want to recruit a couple extra guards from the bandit camp to screen his drakes. It is for this (relatively cheap) balance that I suggest the assassination in the first place.

***
PS: the "spoiler" style code doesn't seem to work for me. Did I not enter it correctly?

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SkyOne
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by SkyOne »

Thanks, shisui. Let's see what and how I can do them.:wink:
shisui wrote:then you know the sandy field is empty, just begging for a new base camp.
Hmm.. I will probably leave the burned village because appearing a keep from there is a bit unreasonable.
shisui wrote:the "spoiler" style code doesn't seem to work for me. Did I not enter it correctly?
I guess the spaces between the
Spoiler:
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shisui
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by shisui »

In "Legend of a Dragon", Deathtron appears to have resistances of 80%+ against all attacks except ShadowBane. However, he also seems to have no natural healing when he rests for a turn. I note that the description for this unit is as I would expect for this type. Is this intentional ?

Personally, I don't think it is all that useful to leave this unchanged. Once I have fully occupied Deathtron's keep, I can burn him for as long as it takes because he has no ranged attack & no aggression to counter attack on his own turn (& it does take a long time). Regardless of what else you choose to do to correct this, Deathtron needs a higher aggression level or my 6 units attacking at approximately 1x6x40% damage will eventually bring him down.

IF you want Deathtron to be nearly invulnerable to everything but ShadowBane, then the scenario is unbalanced as no legal bearer of this sword can expect to defeat Deathtron before their own death. You need give a 2x (or possibly more) vulnerability to that weapon &/or, when the bearer of ShadowBane is killed, the sword could drop to be picked up by some other unit. You would also need to give a line to Dultas, when the sword is picked up, saying something like "It is especially fitting that ShadowBane be carried by a drake for it's potency draws from the living flameheart of a dragon slain far to the west of here." & preferably also a line from Kasii during the scenario that it must have been THIS dragon & thus the sword is HIS bane. Having lost his flameheart might also explain why Deathtron has no ranged attack.

IF this was an error, then you need to reduce Deathtron's invulnerabilities.

Regardless, a personal request -- whatever you do, could you please arange that Deathtron's unit description is consistent with his actual performance. With the possible exception of Dela Keshar (in DiD), I think that it is very important that the database should be true & correct as generally accepted practise allows campaign authors to alter the properties of known units.

***
Footnote -- the scenario I played is one version out of date. I just downloaded the update from the 1.7/1.8 server.

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SkyOne
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by SkyOne »

shisui wrote:In "Legend of a Dragon", Deathtron appears to have resistances of 80%+ against all attacks except ShadowBane. However, he also seems to have no natural healing when he rests for a turn. I note that the description for this unit is as I would expect for this type. Is this intentional ?

Personally, I don't think it is all that useful to leave this unchanged. Once I have fully occupied Deathtron's keep, I can burn him for as long as it takes because he has no ranged attack & no aggression to counter attack on his own turn (& it does take a long time). Regardless of what else you choose to do to correct this, Deathtron needs a higher aggression level or my 6 units attacking at approximately 1x6x40% damage will eventually bring him down.

IF you want Deathtron to be nearly invulnerable to everything but ShadowBane, then the scenario is unbalanced as no legal bearer of this sword can expect to defeat Deathtron before their own death. You need give a 2x (or possibly more) vulnerability to that weapon &/or, when the bearer of ShadowBane is killed, the sword could drop to be picked up by some other unit. You would also need to give a line to Dultas, when the sword is picked up, saying something like "It is especially fitting that ShadowBane be carried by a drake for it's potency draws from the living flameheart of a dragon slain far to the west of here." & preferably also a line from Kasii during the scenario that it must have been THIS dragon & thus the sword is HIS bane. Having lost his flameheart might also explain why Deathtron has no ranged attack.

IF this was an error, then you need to reduce Deathtron's invulnerabilities.
I did it in purpose.:smile: But Shadow Bane is not just a weapon to be effective to Deathtron. Any arcane attack types are effective for him. Kasii has one, and there is a hidden holy water (regular) on the scenario of Legend of a Dragon. (Storm Orb used to be 'arcane damage' some versions before, but I put back to 'fire damage' because I thought it was too much. You think that it had better be arcane type again?)
shisui wrote:Regardless, a personal request -- whatever you do, could you please arange that Deathtron's unit description is consistent with his actual performance. With the possible exception of Dela Keshar (in DiD), I think that it is very important that the database should be true & correct as generally accepted practise allows campaign authors to alter the properties of known units.
Okay, I probably should. Actually, I am using the default unit file for Deathtron; therefore, I am not able to change unit description currently. But yes. As soon as finishing the modification of the scenario 9, Tomahawk, I will install the unit file with the description.

To be honest, it is only the both newest editions, 0.3.3 and 0.4.1, that Deathtron has the high resistance from the beginning of the scenario. I might change it lighter, or write back to previous situation of the scenario that it only effects when the player defeats Death Knight.


thanks a lot, shisui.
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shisui
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by shisui »

Skyone writes:
> But Shadow Bane is not just a weapon to be effective to Deathtron. Any arcane attack types are effective for him.

Then you did not do this correctly: lightning orb attacks and Kasii's crystal attack both were discounted 80%. ONLY shadowbane had 0% resistance; but Shadowbane, being a melee attack, does not do enough damage to offset the drain from Deathtron's riposte. I did not find the holy water, but as there are no melee attacks that do more damage than ShadowBane, I would not attack Deathtron with any unit that had holy water either.

> You think that it had better be arcane type again?

I observe that, currently, the only effective way to kill Deathrtron is to surround him and take four to six turns to burn him down. As Deathtron has such a strong melee/drain attack, I currently do not see any merit to risk any unit in melee with him even if it carried shadowbane or a holy sword. If you do not change the scenario I would expect most other players to use the same logic and burn him down in 4 to 6 turns.

In my opinion, this approach does not make a very interesting victory. I think that the scenario might be more interesting if Deathtron had higher aggression. BUT, with his current damage resistances, there is no way to cause more damage than he would heal from melee & the scenario would become unwinable.

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SkyOne
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by SkyOne »

shisui wrote:Skyone writes:
> But Shadow Bane is not just a weapon to be effective to Deathtron. Any arcane attack types are effective for him.

Then you did not do this correctly: lightning orb attacks and Kasii's crystal attack both were discounted 80%. ONLY shadowbane had 0% resistance; but Shadowbane, being a melee attack, does not do enough damage to offset the drain from Deathtron's riposte. I did not find the holy water, but as there are no melee attacks that do more damage than ShadowBane, I would not attack Deathtron with any unit that had holy water either.
Hmmm... This is different from one in mine. On my computer, everything works fine attacking Deathtron, not only Shadow Bane, also Kasii's Crystal Fire, mermaid's range attack, and an unit who took the holy water. In the case, this is the secret strategy tip for the scenario 12:
Spoiler:
shisui wrote:> You think that it had better be arcane type again?

I observe that, currently, the only effective way to kill Deathrtron is to surround him and take four to six turns to burn him down. As Deathtron has such a strong melee/drain attack, I currently do not see any merit to risk any unit in melee with him even if it carried shadowbane or a holy sword. If you do not change the scenario I would expect most other players to use the same logic and burn him down in 4 to 6 turns.
No. This is not the way it is. If you attack Deathtron correctly, you just need one or two turns to defeat him. But be careful for Kasii. He is not strong enough to stand Deathtron's melee attack.
I have played video games for more than a quarter century since the first Nintendo appeared, so I do not create a game with annoying like that.:smile:
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breversa
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by breversa »

SkyOne wrote:Merci beaucoup, breversa!
What the flattery it is. I am so glad to hear it.:smile: and so nice to hear that you play a whole day my campaigns, and find some values on them. (not too much during the work though.:smile:) For FoaP, I can still cry for Ameck even I wrote the story.
It has taken for a year since I started creating the story, but now both campaigns are getting better. Thank you so much.:smile:
That's not flattery, only deserved congratulations ! ;-)
Sometimes I think about creating my own campaign, but I always give up because spending my time creating would mean less time playing. :-P
SkyOne wrote:Oow, sorry about it. It was my careless mistake. I paid attention too much for both campaigns on 1.7/1.8. I uploaded the fixed version as 0.3.3 on the 1.6 server. You can cross with the version 0.3.2. Then please, restart from the scenario 3.
Yay, it works ! :D
Thanks for the correction, and sorry for my belated answer !
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shisui
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by shisui »

Skyone writes:
> I have played video games for more than a quarter century since the first Nintendo appeared, so I do not create a game with annoying like that.

I am not attacking you. I am reporting what I observe on the assumption that you (also) would prefer that it behave differently.

Attacking Deathtron --
Drake Battler:
Sword 1-4; ShadowBane 11-3; fire breath 1-4
--> As Deathtron's melee attack is 11-4 [Drain], Shadowbane is not a good weapon choice here & nor would holy water.

Wyngillia (level 5): Fire 3-4 [Marksman]
Kasii: Fire 3-3; magicall 21-3 [My error -- seems I did not try kasii]
Storm orb: magical 2-3
Inferno drake: fire 2-6

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SkyOne
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by SkyOne »

breversa wrote:That's not flattery, only deserved congratulations !
Thank you so much. I keep working on both of them for a while.:smile:
breversa wrote:Sometimes I think about creating my own campaign, but I always give up because spending my time creating would mean less time playing.
It is true. Creating a campaign surely takes more times than playing it. Probably, the time you creating a campaign is when you have played all campaigns that you would like to play. You will get more ideas at that time. I was like that.:smile:
shisui wrote:I am not attacking you. I am reporting what I observe on the assumption that you (also) would prefer that it behave differently.
I did not feel being attacked. Sorry if my writing looks like it. Reporting is a great appreciation.:smile:
shisui wrote:Attacking Deathtron --
Drake Battler:
Sword 1-4; ShadowBane 11-3; fire breath 1-4
--> As Deathtron's melee attack is 11-4 [Drain], Shadowbane is not a good weapon choice here & nor would holy water.

Wyngillia (level 5): Fire 3-4 [Marksman]
Kasii: Fire 3-3; magicall 21-3 [My error -- seems I did not try kasii]
Storm orb: magical 2-3
Inferno drake: fire 2-6
Those are exactly how I set up by using the [object] tag.


The version, 0.4.2, is on the 1.7/1.8 add-ons server.

The changes are all minor at this time.
The bomb part and the objective on scenario 9, Tomahawk, has been changed because of reporting comments by shisui. Currently, even the leader unit moves next to the Watchtower, the bomb will just be released. Then when the unit makes the next action, the bomb will blow up the Watchtower. Also, any units next to the Watchtower will be killed on the explosion, except the leader unit.
And some maps have been adjusted for 1.7/1.8.


thanks
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
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shisui
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by shisui »

>> In "Legend of a Dragon", Deathtron appears to have resistances of 80%+ against all attacks
. . .
> Those are exactly how I set up by using the [object] tag.

Then I accept this as intentional.

In playing this scenario, it never occurred to me to attack Deathtron with kasii because he was so very, very busy repairing 6 drakes/move.

Then, PLEASE, could you correct the unit description. Then, when I discover that Deathtron is nearly invulnerable, I can look at the data and decide how I will deal with it. (ie: attack him with Kasii)

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SkyOne
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by SkyOne »

shisui wrote:>> In "Legend of a Dragon", Deathtron appears to have resistances of 80%+ against all attacks
. . .
> Those are exactly how I set up by using the [object] tag.

Then I accept this as intentional.
Thanks for the acceptance.
shisui wrote:In playing this scenario, it never occurred to me to attack Deathtron with kasii because he was so very, very busy repairing 6 drakes/move.
Haha! Yes, Kasii is busy almost all the times after his first appearance. Making at least two of Mermaid Priestess (or Mermaid Diviner) before starting the scenario 12, Legend of a Dragon, will be helpful, not only for the healing, but also for attacking Deathtron. (they have the arcane attacks.) In addition, leveling up Kasii's Crystal Fire is also effective at the scenario 12. You can use him as the last attack to Deathtron.
shisui wrote:Then, PLEASE, could you correct the unit description. Then, when I discover that Deathtron is nearly invulnerable, I can look at the data and decide how I will deal with it. (ie: attack him with Kasii)
Okay, okay. At this time, I have added a message on the objectives as a HINT which is:
except the arcane damage type, any attack types are not really effective for Deathtron.
Hopefully, this helps.


Although the new version 0.4.3 is BfW 1.7/1.8 add-ons server, the changes are only the mamba spear and adding a message above. The mamba spear is now the ranged attack, instead of the melee attack. The full animations cover the attack for Dwarvish Stalwart, Dwarvish Sentinel, and Javelineer. And only the missile frames and the sound for Drake Enforcer and Drake Thrasher.


thanks
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breversa
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by breversa »

Hi SkyOne !

I keep on fighting my way through this campaign, and although I keep ranting against the drakes' "expandable" units (due to their lowish defence), I highly enjoy playing it ! :-)

In the Hidden cave scenario, I gave the Hyper Halberd (typo here : you spelled "Halbert) to Sergeant Tyngel... only to find out that in the next battle (Tomahawk), he would leave my army to side as an ally. Had I known this, I would have given this weapon to one of my drake slashers(?) instead.

I'm not yet through the battle, so maybe Sergeant Tyngel will join my army again later, but if he doesn't it may be a good idea to
1- give a word of advice in the Hidden Cave Scenario, that only a drake should take the halberd
2- have Sergeant Tyngel drop his halberd on the ground at the beginning of Tomahawk battle, so that another drake may pick it up.

(I remember a similar situation in Fate of a Princess, where I gave the Frost Bow to a human archer who would then leave my army one or two scenarii later to besiege some city... Again, it may be a good idea to have such unit drop his special weapon before leaving forever... unless that's a trick to "enhance" the replay value of your campaign, but using frustration to achieve this goal is not a good idea IMO)
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SkyOne
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Re: 1.6.x and 1.7/1.8.x SP Drake Campaign, Brave Wings

Post by SkyOne »

Ummm... This campaign is something wrong on BfW 1.7.11. So please, not to play this campaign on it. Fine on 1.7.8-1.7.10 and 1.6.x though.

I just uploaded the emergency version on the 1.7/1.8 add-ons server as 0.4.4. The game is the same as 0.4.3. I just changed the descriptions not to play it on BfW 1.7.11.
breversa wrote:Hi SkyOne !

I keep on fighting my way through this campaign, and although I keep ranting against the drakes' "expandable" units (due to their lowish defence), I highly enjoy playing it !
Hello, breversa!

Thanks for keeping play it, and yes! They always need backups for the front line. That is a reason why Dwarvish Attendant replaced Drake Burner on FoaP.
breversa wrote:In the Hidden cave scenario, I gave the Hyper Halberd (typo here : you spelled "Halbert) to Sergeant Tyngel... only to find out that in the next battle (Tomahawk), he would leave my army to side as an ally. Had I known this, I would have given this weapon to one of my drake slashers(?) instead.
Oh, it is possible to be said, and so is Mamba Spear, also Shadow Bane. (on easy difficulty, there is a Spearman.) I have to think about it.

For Halbert: my dictionary said Halbert is equal to Halberd, but it is 20 years old one. I will change it to what you said. If you have a nice name for it, I will take it though.:smile:
breversa wrote:I'm not yet through the battle, so maybe Sergeant Tyngel will join my army again later, but if he doesn't it may be a good idea to
1- give a word of advice in the Hidden Cave Scenario, that only a drake should take the halberd
2- have Sergeant Tyngel drop his halberd on the ground at the beginning of Tomahawk battle, so that another drake may pick it up.
Thank you so much for these ideas. Sergeant Tyngel won't be back forever. #2 is probably more fun to play, but at this moment, I just took #1 because a serious problem has been found on BfW 1.7.11. I have to find out immediately why the campaign does not work as well on it. I have installed a note on the objectives on the new edition as:
all humans and dwarves will leave the party at the end of next level
But you are playing on 1.6.x, aren't you?
breversa wrote:I remember a similar situation in Fate of a Princess, where I gave the Frost Bow to a human archer who would then leave my army one or two scenarii later to besiege some city... Again, it may be a good idea to have such unit drop his special weapon before leaving forever...
I think that the bow is okay because there are 6 scenarios, including the scenario to pick up the bow, even a human archer takes it. But not for Flame Sword. If Master at Arms or Drake Lord picks it up, only 2 scenarios to go for them. I have to think about it...
breversa wrote:unless that's a trick to "enhance" the replay value of your campaign, but using frustration to achieve this goal is not a good idea IMO
Very good! It is exactly the reason why. When I was just a player, I always repeat to play for the campaigns I like.
For example, when I played Dead Water:
At the first time, I let the King, Kai Krellis, take Storm Trident.
At the second time, a loyal unit, Gwabbo, then at the third time, I picked one of level=0 units to take it.
However, I know that many players do not play like I played, so I will do something to avoid to get frustrations on both campaigns.

Thank you so much again, breversa. I appreciate your comments.:smile:
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
Drake Campaign: Brave Wings/feedback thread, Naga Campaign: Return of the Monster, Saurian Campaign: Across the Ocean
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