Dead Water 1.0 for BfW 1.8

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beetlenaut
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.4)

Post by beetlenaut »

csarmi wrote:Would be much better to give a fancy loyal unit or something.
OK. I have some ideas. Maybe I'll have a different bonus for each leader you kill.
csarmi wrote:You could also set those starting golds better.
I was wondering if I should raise them. I'll do that. I'll have to anyway to change to the new gold carryover system. I'm switching to that when I port the campaign to 1.5. (As soon as I get to the 1.0 release.)
csarmi wrote:BTW, in the wolf map, the enemy leader just didn't recruit at first
That happened to me once too, and I don't know why. I'll set the aggression higher and see if that helps.
I'm a little too busy to work on this right away, but I'll get to it in a week or so. Would you be willing to replay at least the first scenario or two at some point and let me know what you think? Thanks for all of your feedback. It's been very helpful!
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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and WML Guide
mich
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.4)

Post by mich »

Hi beetlenaut, I have updated the translation and attached here the new .mo file (version 0.9.5).
This translation is not on wescamp at the moment. Some units description strings are still missing for the texdomain problem, I hope that you can fix it before the next version.
Bye.
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italian traslation
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.4)

Post by beetlenaut »

mich wrote:Some units description strings are still missing for the texdomain problem, I hope that you can fix it before the next version.
Oh no! Sorry, I forgot to fix that. I have fixed it now, so it will be correct in the next version. That should be out in less than a week. I have a question though. I have a fire guardian that came from Under the Burning Suns, and it uses textdomain-utbs. Also, I have a Cuttle Fish that is almost the same as the mainline one, and uses textdomain-units. Do I need to change those two to textdomain-deadwater, or will they automatically use the translations in the other domains? Do you know?
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide
mich
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.5)

Post by mich »

They automatically use the translations in the other domains.
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by beetlenaut »

mich: It should be fixed now.

csarmi: I addressed all your complaints--they were all valid. Most of the changes are in the first two scenarios. I hope you are willing to replay at least those two and tell me what you think.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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and WML Guide
Loci
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by Loci »

I just finished playing through this campaign on normal. My thoughts overall were that it's quite good, easily good enough for mainline. Now for some random-ordered thoughts/suggestions:

There are a few places where the dialogue sounds a little odd (one that stuck in my mind was the introduction text to the campaign).

The minimum starting gold seemed quite low on some levels.

In the last scenario (Revenge) the introductory dialogue was mistakely cued for turn 10 instead of (presumably) turn 1 (or start).

I absolutely detest the blood bats (although it sounds like there were even more of them at one point), but they are mostly manageable.

I wasn't sold on all the little icons, but I did find the bronze loyal crown helpful.

The flaming-sword-pickup dialogue caused me some confusion (the first guy says "I can't summon fire elementals" so I tried somebody else and there was no mention of fire elementals (ultimately leading me to open the .cfg file to find out if any of my units could summon fire elementals)). I'd say drop the mention of fire elementals at all--I certainly didn't expect to be able to summon them until my unit commented that *he* couldn't.

The countdown (err.. countup?) on the find-the-mage level doesn't make much sense to me.


Thanks for the great campaign!
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by beetlenaut »

Loci wrote:My thoughts overall were that it's quite good, easily good enough for mainline.
Thank you! I hope they put it in BfW 1.6.
Loci wrote:There are a few places where the dialogue sounds a little odd (one that stuck in my mind was the introduction text to the campaign).
I looked at it, and nothing stuck out to me. Could you be more specific?
Loci wrote:The minimum starting gold seemed quite low on some levels.
I intentionally kept it low. Campaigns are much less of a challenge when you have 1500 gold. Was there a level that gave you extra trouble because of it?
Loci wrote:In the last scenario (Revenge) the introductory dialogue was mistakely cued for turn 10 instead of (presumably) turn 1 (or start). The countdown (err.. countup?) on the find-the-mage level doesn't make much sense to me.
Both were for me when I was testing. (The numbers on The Mage are part of the code for the bats.) I just finished rewriting The Mage, and I'm in the middle of The Revenge. I forgot to get out all the debug code before uploading 0.9.5. It was already fixed in 0.9.6 though.
Loci wrote:I absolutely detest the blood bats (although it sounds like there were even more of them at one point), but they are mostly manageable.
Just be thankful I didn't use the dread bats from the development version!
Loci wrote:I wasn't sold on all the little icons, but I did find the bronze loyal crown helpful.
I hope the loyalty markers at least make it into mainline. There was a discussion about them (I stole the image from that thread), but nothing more ever happened. I've never heard anyone else's opinion about the other icons, but I like them. They mark the units I least want to lose.
Loci wrote:The flaming-sword-pickup dialogue caused me some confusion.... I'd say drop the mention of fire elementals at all.
Hmm. I see your point. I'll take that line out.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide
Cheradenine
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by Cheradenine »

Just finished playing through the campaign on Normal, and liked it enough to register and make my first post. Nice work -- easily on a par with some of the mainline campaigns, especially with a bit of polishing.

Scenario #2 was pretty easy because I'd taken the suggestion to get Kai Krellis some experience to heart, so he was already level 2 by the end of scenario #1. All he had to do was high-tail it for the northwest corner. The gold bonus was nice too, though I frittered it all away by the next-to-last scenario, which was pretty challenging. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the win condition for scenario #2 since it basically can be very easy or very hard depending on what happened in scenario #1 - I'm not certain what I'd change it to, though.

The climax wasn't too hard - I could do almost all the fighting in the water where the mermen's defense generally kept them alive. Maybe consider letting some of the enemies recruit Dark Sorcerers to make mermen in the water less complacent?

Anyway, thanks for your work on the campaign -- lots of fun.
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by beetlenaut »

Cheradenine wrote:Just finished playing through the campaign on Normal, and liked it enough to register and make my first post. Nice work -- easily on a par with some of the mainline campaigns, especially with a bit of polishing.
Thanks, and welcome to the forums!
Cheradenine wrote:Scenario #2 was pretty easy because I'd taken the suggestion to get Kai Krellis some experience to heart, so he was already level 2 by the end of scenario #1. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the win condition for scenario #2 since it basically can be very easy or very hard depending on what happened in scenario #1.
Already level 2? Did that leave anyone else with significant experience? I know scenario #2 kind of depends on #1, but that's why I put in the suggestion. If you find it too easy, you can always take out an enemy or two. They each give you a bonus of one kind or another. (As of version 0.9.6, anyway.)
Cheradenine wrote:The climax wasn't too hard - I could do almost all the fighting in the water where the mermen's defense generally kept them alive. Maybe consider letting some of the enemies recruit Dark Sorcerers to make mermen in the water less complacent?
Yeah, I'm going to be changing that level. I have a new map, and I'm working on the code. Then I have to balance it, and it's going to be kind of hard I think. I hadn't really thought about putting in Dark Sorcerers, but I think I will. It's a good idea.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide
Loci
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by Loci »

beetlenaut wrote:
Loci wrote:There are a few places where the dialogue sounds a little odd (one that stuck in my mind was the introduction text to the campaign).
I looked at it, and nothing stuck out to me. Could you be more specific?
Perhaps this sounds a little more "epic" for an introduction?
In the Northern Lands where the Mountains of Dorth reach the coast lies a bay with a narrow mouth. This bay was home to the merman capital city Johtha. The natural harbor and the prosperity of the merfolk within drew many envious eyes. Still, none could match the strength of the mermen in their aquatic domain, and countless orc raiding parties were driven from the shores.

In 626 YW, the largest orc raiding party yet nearly breached the walls of Johtha before Kai Laudiss and his troops repelled the assault. When the raiders fled north towards Tirigaz, Kai Laudiss readied his army to follow, determined to secure the safety of Johtha with an overwhelming display of force. The merman army caught up with the orc band at the port city Tirigaz.

Under the cover of darkness the mermen infiltrated the orcish fortifications and launched a surprise attack at dawn. Severely outnumbered, the Kai's army fought valiantly, slaying five orcs for every merman lost. It was a battle the orcs would not soon forget, but the cost was high. Kai Laudiss was killed along with most of his army. When the remnants of the war party returned to Johtha, Krellis, son of Kai Laudiss, was proclaimed Kai.

Kai Krellis was young for the responsibilities of the kingdom. He turned to one of his father’s closest friends, a priestess named Cylanna, as his unofficial advisor. He had known her for as long as he could remember and her wisdom was renowned throughout the seas.

Even as they mourned the loss of Kai Laudiss the people of Johtha looked toward the future, an age of peace bought at a grievous price. But it was not to be.
beetlenaut wrote:
Loci wrote:The minimum starting gold seemed quite low on some levels.
I intentionally kept it low. Campaigns are much less of a challenge when you have 1500 gold. Was there a level that gave you extra trouble because of it?
True, but there's a big difference between 150 gold and 1500 gold. The gold system in Battle for Wesnoth is generally flawed in that it creates a "feast or famine" effect--lots of gold means lots of troops leading to an early finish and even more gold, while little gold means few troops leading to a protracted battle and little gold for the next scenario. This of course isn't your fault, but bumping up the minimum starting gold doesn't help the players with 1500 gold one bit, while the players at the other extreme are grateful for a chance to dig themselves out of the hole.

My gold counts (normal):

463 : Flight
338 : Wolf Coast
131 : Slavers
283 : Tirigaz
119 : Uncharted
052 : Biheld
145 : The Mage
172 : Flaming Sword
500 : Revenge

In particular, Slavers was rather difficult. Wolf Coast ate into my gold supply badly because the leader saved half his gold until I approached his keep, then recruited another round of troops which I had to fight on unfavorable terrain. Then, the "uprising" in Slavers magnifies the gold disparity (if you've got lots of gold you get the maximum benefit from having expendable targets appear for a few turns at the beginning of the scenario; if you've little gold then the expendable targets are long gone by the time you have sufficient forces for a reasonably large attack). Note that deferring this event to a time of the player's choosing would increase its value to the struggling player significantly while not really affecting the rich players.
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by beetlenaut »

The intro you wrote was not bad. The first paragraph is clearly better than mine, so I will use it mostly as you wrote it. However, your account of the battle at Tirigaz is backwards from the way I meant it. The mermen were the ones surprised when they arrived and found an overwhelming force waiting for them. I will rewrite it to make all that clear. I was trying to keep it short, but it could still be improved. I will consider changing the next two paragraphs, and I may borrow some of your writing. We'll see. What would really make this all better would be story art. I would wouldn't worry that it was getting too long if you had something else to look at. There is very little merman artwork of any kind (other than the sprites, I mean), and I'm not capable of doing it myself.

I think I've fixed the leader's behavior in Wolf Coast in the latest version. I never could figure out why the AI saved his gold. I had to make it do that in other places. I found a work-around though: I don't let him to move for a few turns. He gets bored and recruits.

Most of your gold seems right. The really low ones are below the minimums anyway, so it wouldn't have mattered. It will also help that I've raised the minimums in a couple scenarios in the latest version. I'm still tweaking it--mostly up.

Letting the player choose when the slaves revolt is a great idea. I'll add that soon.

I appreciate you taking the time to work on this!
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide
Loci
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by Loci »

beetlenaut wrote:The intro you wrote was not bad.
"Reworded" is probably more accurate. The ideas are all yours; I just added a little editorial polish.
beetlenaut wrote:However, your account of the battle at Tirigaz is backwards from the way I meant it. The mermen were the ones surprised when they arrived and found an overwhelming force waiting for them.
If the mermen were travelling overland they never would have caught the orcs. And 2-to-1 would be impressive for mermen fighting on open land (to say nothing of 5-to-1). If they were traveling overwater (underwater?) then there would be no practical means for the orcs to cut off their escape. I know it's artistic license and all that, but if we assume Kai Laudiss wasn't dead-set on a suicidal attack (which would make it difficult for the player to empathize with him and, by extension, the mermen) he would have turned-tail and fled to the open ocean if the odds were as bad as described. But, if his forces were already committed (in say, a non-suicidal surprise attack) when another orcish war band just happened to arrive and most of his troops were surrounded in defensible terrain (the bay of Tirigaz) then the 5-to-1 number becomes realistic and Kai Laudiss retains his "empathy" with the player. That's alot of explanation to suggest:
Under the cover of darkness the mermen infiltrated the orcish fortifications and launched a surprise attack at dawn. The battle was all but won when an orcish host from the north swarmed into Tirigaz. Surrounded and severely outnumbered, the Kai's army fought valiantly, slaying five orcs for every merman lost...
beetlenaut wrote:There is very little merman artwork of any kind (other than the sprites, I mean), and I'm not capable of doing it myself.
Unfortunately I am highly unqualified to make story art (or art in general).

beetlenaut wrote:I appreciate you taking the time to work on this!
With the holidays approaching I should have a little more spare time. Is there anything else that you would like help with?
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by opensourcejunkie »

Hey, just a heads up: In Tirigaz, I managed to attack one of the stationed orcs without physically stepping on land. As a result, the orcish leader didn't retaliate, even though I had clearly made myself into an enemy. So, just as a thought, you may want to code an attack event or something to trigger the orcs, even if no mermen are on land.

keep up the good work :-)
--OSJ
what if the Bible's claims about Christ depicted accurate, verifiable history? given some research, you might be surprised at the evidence...
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by beetlenaut »

opensourcejunkie wrote:So, just as a thought, you may want to code an attack event or something to trigger the orcs, even if no mermen are on land.
I think I had a reason for not doing that, but since I can't remember what it was, it must not have been a very good one! Maybe I just forgot. I'll put in an attack_end event.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide
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Re: Merman campaign: Dead Water (0.9.6)

Post by lastjuan »

Thank you for such a fantastic campgain! :D :D For me, the most enjoyable part is to explore fully the possibilities of the mermen. I had alwaysw feel that it would be neat to improve their units.

The only thing that I don't particularly like is that you had play three scenarios on the same map, but I suppose that it fits nicely with the storyline. Also you don't seem too inclined to it, but I'd love to see a fight with nagas... :wink:
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