(W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

It is on purpose that there is no info... the weapons are found on dead bodies, they are not provided with a user manual.
The special effects are revealed when they are triggered. For example, once you triggered the "soul eater" capacity, it appears in the unit attack description, with a short explanation. It says "gains power" with no more details because this power depends on what the soul is and which souls the weapon already absorbed.
When a unit bonds with a weapon, the text that appears gives a hint on what the weapon-specific effects are. But no details are available.

In the fourth scenario, the heroes should find a library where some explanations will be available. But the reference books will be written in an unknown language, and the translation will be imperfect...

Aboyt your question "Why you can't equiped ring+weapon ?" the answer should have appeared as the following message from the weapon that the unit is bonded with "Did you forget that we are bonded? That's a betrayal!"
It is because the bond between a living weapon and its wielder is exclusive. Polygamy is not possible...
ydcl
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by ydcl »

ok, thanks for the explanation.
Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

Now version 0.2.3.
Mainly bug corrections, and also an improvement when looking for info on a unit with shift-i: it shows the list of souls that have been eaten to strengthen the weapon bond.

Here is also a replay of the third scenario (with BfW 1.14), where I optimized for soul eating how the weapon wielders have been fighting (this allowed me to detect a bug when eating a second soul of an elvish mixed fighter).
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BloodLust-Looking for more (replay optimized for soul eating).gz
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Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

While I am preparing the fourth scenario, I have a question/remark for those who played the previous ones...

In most cases, I suppose that you chose that the wielder of Stormbringer will be Elric.
When playing scenario 3 you probably noticed than one of the proposed AMLA is a demonic pitchfork attack, which is a consequence of Elric formerly being a peasant.
It is also possible to decide that the wielder of Stormbringer will be another unit, e.g. with the Intelligent trait, to optimize XP consumption for AMLA. In that case, the wielder may be a woodsman and the special AMLA will be a bow.
If one of you wants that another unit type wields Stormbringer, please tell me in advance, because I will need to implement a special AMLA for this unit type.
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Lord-Knightmare
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

While I am preparing the fourth scenario, I have a question/remark for those who played the previous ones...
In my case, the unit I picked was Elric, since well...he was the only one of side 1 to be left alive.
If one of you wants that another unit type wields Stormbringer, please tell me in advance, because I will need to implement a special AMLA for this unit type.
The possible options are Peasant, Woodsman, Spearman, Bowman and a Poacher. Maybe if picked up a Spearman, there should be a "demonic spear"? Level 2 also come into consideration, but I do not think those are achievable in the case for Scenario 1.
Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 9:56 pm In my case, the unit I picked was Elric, since well...he was the only one of side 1 to be left alive.
Indeed, at least for the first attempt at the first scenario, it is likely that Elric is chosen.
And the name of the unit and of the weapon are a hint that it is what I intended.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 9:56 pm The possible options are Peasant, Woodsman, Spearman, Bowman and a Poacher. Maybe if picked up a Spearman, there should be a "demonic spear"? Level 2 also come into consideration, but I do not think those are achievable in the case for Scenario 1.
Indeed, it is possible, but rare, to have a level 1 unit in scenario 1. And I agree that having a level 2 unit during the first scenario should not be achievable.

However, there are even other possibilities. There may be players that want to have multiple necromancers and therefore implement the following strategy: have a unit wield Stormbringer, advance to Dark Adept, drop Stormbringer to be wielded by another unit, have the Dark Adept wield Draupnir, and make it the basis of an army of loyal necromancers.

This could be done in scenario 2, and the new wielder of Stormbringer could be an elf, or even Salmator (I would need to change the dialogs in that case, and I don't think that it is a good strategy to have Salmator advancing to Dark Adept, but it might be viable).

The current implementation does not support these unusual strategies... therefore I wanted to warn the players that want to experiment with them!
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Yellowsilver
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Yellowsilver »

Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm Hello Yellowsilver. Thank you for your feedback.
You're welcome!
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm For the first scenario, indeed, the peasant are too weak. That's expected. They are not to be used to fight the orcs, but rather to have them move to the right locations. As I mentioned, each scenario is intended to be played many times.
In your replay, I see that you had a peasant in Ogira, which lured a wolf there, and then the city guards reverse the balance of the fights. Nevertheless Garath has been killed. I invite you to find a way to save him. It is possible, even on HARD difficulty. That's the use of the peasants that you recruit...
Note also that Elric is not invincible with Stormbringer. If you take too many risks, he will be killed by orcish archers.
Sure, I was just trying out the campaign and understanding the mechanisms, I intend to play it again correctly at some point.
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm For the second scenario, the replay becomes desynchronized around turn 17. I see that you have found Salmator, but not the elves. The number of turns seems to be sufficient, you finished one turn early. There are less turns in HARD difficulty, but it is doable too.
Yes, you're right, but as I said I was hardly trying to play correctly, just to go through because I liked the concept and play a bit with the weapons because it's funny :P
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm I don't see that you pick Draupnir in this replay. It is probably in another play of this scenario.
What makes you say that it is not working? What was the behaviour? If you tried to have the same unit wield many weapons, then the messages should explain why it is a bad idea.
Well, I did, it showed me a window when a unit stepped on it, but then nothing happened and the unit didn't wear it. Perhaps it was the same bug as having two weapons lying on the ground.
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm For the third scenario, it seems that you were not careful enough, the wielder of Sting has been killed...
Yes, I just wanted to see what Anaklusmos was out of curiosity, I wouldn't have let him die otherwise.
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm And you discovered a bug: the reason why you cannot take Anaklusmos is because there are two weapons located at the same place, and in that case the item picking events don't work.
I will correct this bug.
Okay, thanks!
Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

Now version 0.2.4, with half of the fourth scenario (hiring mercenaries is possible, but gladiator fight is not there yet).
With this possibility of hiring mercenaries, there should be many additional ways of playing the third scenario.

Here are also replays of the first two scenarios (for 1.14) where the wielder of Stormbringer is not Elric. This results in a quite different setting than my previous replays...
Attachments
BloodLust-Orc Camp revoir la partie.gz
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BloodLust-First Battle of Ogira revoir la partie.gz
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Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

Yellowsilver wrote: June 4th, 2021, 5:46 pm
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm I don't see that you pick Draupnir in this replay. It is probably in another play of this scenario.
What makes you say that it is not working? What was the behaviour? If you tried to have the same unit wield many weapons, then the messages should explain why it is a bad idea.
Well, I did, it showed me a window when a unit stepped on it, but then nothing happened and the unit didn't wear it. Perhaps it was the same bug as having two weapons lying on the ground.
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm For the third scenario, it seems that you were not careful enough, the wielder of Sting has been killed...
Yes, I just wanted to see what Anaklusmos was out of curiosity, I wouldn't have let him die otherwise.
Ptitboul wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:52 pm And you discovered a bug: the reason why you cannot take Anaklusmos is because there are two weapons located at the same place, and in that case the item picking events don't work.
I will correct this bug.
Okay, thanks!
In fact, there was no bug when two weapons are located at the same place.

All the issues that you have found, it is because you started the first two scenarios with version 0.1.6 of Bloodlust, which implemented only two weapons (Stormbringer and Sting). All other weapons were non functional, because they were not in the savefile created with version 0.1.6.

Starting with version 0.2.2, it should be possible to continue a campaign by simply updating the version of Bllodlust, but not needing to start from the beginning. But even if it should be possible, it is not recommended, because that might trigger some bugs caused by inconsistencies.
shevegen
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by shevegen »

The initial idea reminds me a bit of Elric of Melnibone and his living sword. Have you read that perhaps? Or how did you get the idea?

Anyway, just downloaded and trying it now. Will try to give feedback soon.

Ok, I'll list this here numbered and edit.

(1) The leader unit type, the big guy, tends to suicide. Right now he just rushed forward
to meet the trolls, then got counter-killed the next turn. Suicidal leader type units are
quite problematic. Would it be possible to favour him to be more defensively so that
he does not run out of his keep and die? There are work arounds of course, I can
distract the enemy units, but I always find it so awkward that I plan some moves
but then the leader type of allied units I have no control over just rushes out to
suicide in order to kill enemy weak units.

(2) Ah noticed the name stormbringer just now. I'd still recommend another name. :)
Wrathbringer or souldrinker or anything, if only to lessen the direct influence, and
keep an indirect reference. By the way, nice idea in general - I don't think we had
such a campaign idea before or not in that way.

(3) When recruiting the healer, I would change the dialogue a bit, e. g. remove
the "loser" part, and change it to something like "help him survive" as opposed
to "we can not risk incurring more attention from the orcs, by adding more
to our army right now" or something like this. This may be a bit more "in-game"
e. g. if the cleric needs help from the orcs. It makes no real sense to use the
loser-option because why would the protagonist have a reason to call him a
loser suddenly? This is nitpicking but I wanted to just try to style up a bit
in the campaign, from an in-campaign point of view.

(4) It would be nice if there could be some listing of available items, as an
overview. Perhaps not for first play through but at a later time for people who
may want to min-max a little. Like this or that weapon. And also whether they
may have missed a weapon or ring in a scenario.

(5) Perhaps a unit could be special, a mage unit that can magically detach
an item again, for the cost of one turn or a bit of XP. For the lesser magical
stuff at the least; evidently not for something like stormbringer.

(6) Turning into an orc was hilarious. :D But perhaps it could be more fitting
to the underlying race, like an elf, that becomes a darkelf or something like
that. Not sure if it is worth to add that effort but just mentioning it.

(7) I just had an elf scout level 2 turned into an orcish archer level 1. While
this is funny, that actually was a downgrade. I lost a lot of mobility and
a bit of power for a meager level 1 unit. Could at the least the level be
retained? Or alternatively level 2 or above be immune to unit change?
Or perhaps name which items effect this. It's a bit risky to lose high
level units. It was my only elvish scout (I normally don't like them and
use them only due to speed, so this downgrade was a big nerf. Almost
made me reload... well now I have an orcish archer level 1 I'm gonna
train. But I already have elvish archers which are better, so not sure
what to do with that unit...)
Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am The initial idea reminds me a bit of Elric of Melnibone and his living sword. Have you read that perhaps? Or how did you get the idea?
Indeed. I am mentioning the name of Moorcock in the initial message of this thread...

Thank you for your feedback.
shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am (1) The leader unit type, the big guy, tends to suicide. Right now he just rushed forward
to meet the trolls, then got counter-killed the next turn. Suicidal leader type units are
quite problematic. Would it be possible to favour him to be more defensively so that
he does not run out of his keep and die? There are work arounds of course, I can
distract the enemy units, but I always find it so awkward that I plan some moves
but then the leader type of allied units I have no control over just rushes out to
suicide in order to kill enemy weak units.
I suppose that it is in the first scenario.
It is on purpose: I see two main ways of playing this scenario:
- no strategy: recruit peasants and have them killed, save Elric, have him wield Stormbringer, fight back and kill the orc leader.
- using tricks from Wesnoth experts: the gold amoun of income and factions is known to the players, so it is clear from the start that the humans (Elric+Garath) have no chance to win as it is. Therefore the only possibility is that Lord Redain brings some reinforcement, and therefore the orcs have to threaten the city. The strategy becomes obvious: use the peasants to have the orcs enter the city, rather than to stop the orcs. In addition, protect Garath and have in move in one of the city villages when he is wounded. The trick is that an allied unit goes to heal itself to a close village, but not if it is possessed by us; therefore wa can have peasants possess the villages outside Ogira, and Garath will go in Ogira to heal, and later to recruit additional units which will be useful for the next scenarios.

That why I rated this campaign as "expert" level: some tricks will only be known to player that have experience of how Wesnoth AI is moving units.
shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am (2) Ah noticed the name stormbringer just now. I'd still recommend another name. :)
Wrathbringer or souldrinker or anything, if only to lessen the direct influence, and
keep an indirect reference. By the way, nice idea in general - I don't think we had
such a campaign idea before or not in that way.
Thank you. But I will keep the Stormbringer name. And there will also be Mournblade later (around scenario 10 to 15 I suppose).
I want the reference to Moorcock's books to be explicit.
shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am (3) When recruiting the healer, I would change the dialogue a bit, e. g. remove
the "loser" part, and change it to something like "help him survive" as opposed
to "we can not risk incurring more attention from the orcs, by adding more
to our army right now" or something like this. This may be a bit more "in-game"
e. g. if the cleric needs help from the orcs. It makes no real sense to use the
loser-option because why would the protagonist have a reason to call him a
loser suddenly? This is nitpicking but I wanted to just try to style up a bit
in the campaign, from an in-campaign point of view.
Agreed, I will improve the dialog.
shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am (4) It would be nice if there could be some listing of available items, as an
overview. Perhaps not for first play through but at a later time for people who
may want to min-max a little. Like this or that weapon. And also whether they
may have missed a weapon or ring in a scenario.
Some information will be available in scenario number 5 "The Trove".
But I don't want it to be simple for the player to discover the hidden tricks. One may always look to the WML to have all details, or to the inline help to have some details, but the underlying idea is that Elric and his friends are discovering the existence of the living weapons, and experimenting with them is complex.

I will be more explicit at the start of the campaign, that it is intended that the player discovers the special effects of the weapons by using them.
shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am (5) Perhaps a unit could be special, a mage unit that can magically detach
an item again, for the cost of one turn or a bit of XP. For the lesser magical
stuff at the least; evidently not for something like stormbringer.
It might be a power of the weapon that Salmator is looking for, indeed.
But he will not find this weapon before the 6th or 7th scenario, I think (I've not written them yet, but I have plans).
shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am (6) Turning into an orc was hilarious. :D But perhaps it could be more fitting
to the underlying race, like an elf, that becomes a darkelf or something like
that. Not sure if it is worth to add that effort but just mentioning it.
Nah. Sting likes orcs, Sting does not like dark elves.
As mentioned when wielding Sting "You are now the inheritor of a long line of Orc Heroes!"
The most powerful weapons (Stormbringer and Sting are powerful) are more demanding on their wielders.

I may create other weapons that change the unit type or race, I don't know yet.
It is interesting to have new unit types, but it takes time to implement them. I might copy some dark elves from another campaign. For the third and fourth scenario, I already copied a few external unit types.
shevegen wrote: June 6th, 2021, 10:16 am (7) I just had an elf scout level 2 turned into an orcish archer level 1. While
this is funny, that actually was a downgrade. I lost a lot of mobility and
a bit of power for a meager level 1 unit. Could at the least the level be
retained? Or alternatively level 2 or above be immune to unit change?
Or perhaps name which items effect this. It's a bit risky to lose high
level units. It was my only elvish scout (I normally don't like them and
use them only due to speed, so this downgrade was a big nerf. Almost
made me reload... well now I have an orcish archer level 1 I'm gonna
train. But I already have elvish archers which are better, so not sure
what to do with that unit...)
Yes, that's the problem with Sting. It likes orcs, it does not like other unit types.
I suppose that your elf scout had only a few hitpoints left. If this is the case, it should have stayed away from the wielder of Sting...

If you experiment a bit with it (especially during the third scenario "Looking for More"), you will se that the "orc khan" special power is complex, powerful but risky. Its description is not very precise, but it is explicit: "Sting prefers when its wielder is surrounded by orcs."
vghetto
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by vghetto »

I don't know if this affects the mod in any way, I haven't tried it yet.
The lua included in this mod expects Legend_of_the_Invincibles to exist and yet it is not added as a dependency.
I'm specifically talking about ./ai/*.lua
Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

Good catch! It has no impact for Wesnoth 1.14, but for Wesnoth 1.12, Legends of the Invincibles is needed, because "fast_ai" is not available as a micro_ai, and I did not replace the paths in the lua files.

In the first two scenarios, there are not a lot of units, therefore fast_ai should not be needed. I will have to test the third scenario to check if fast_ai is needed there, and upload a new version of Bloodlust where fast_ai is only used where needed.
Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

Now version 0.2.5, taking into account your remarks, but nothing really new.
Ptitboul
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Re: (W.I.P.) BloodLust - SP campaign, with living weapons 1.12/1.14/1.15

Post by Ptitboul »

Now version 0.2.6, with scenario 04 almost complete: three possible fights in the arena of the city of Asgirath (of a planned total of five).
Also a correction of a bug of the special power of Anaklusmos and some small other improvements.
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