Orcish shaman

[blackjack]

Well, they are the socio-political religious leaders... not everything must be measured in terms of combat ability.

As it stands, they were designed to be like this. And a conscious design change would alter the campaign fundamentally... esp the Siege of Barag Gor.

I personally don't see a need for every little embelishment to be made - sometimes simplicity is the right choice. They were not supposed to have heal/cure/leadership, nor have advancement. Buffing them up goes against the grain of the campaign - they are not meant to be combat/ support units.

[Tux2B]

As socio-political religious leaders, they could at least have leadership.

[blackjack]

As socio-political religious leaders, they could at least have leadership.

Leadership, as an ability, falls on trained military leaders. That is the case throughout Wesnoth... (well, scott's Shadow Lords from Liberty had them too but those are due to fear and intimidation).

Leadership would be wasted too, unless they were made level 2/ given the ability to advance. And that to me, is just implausible.

[Taurus]

As it stands, they were designed to be like this. And a conscious design change would alter the campaign fundamentally... esp the Siege of Barag Gor.

Well, the thing is - I am already altering the campaign fundamentally, especially the Siege of Barag Gor. See "Son of the Black Eye - Updated" on the server. The Barag Gor changes arn't up yet, but will be... hopefully later on today.

[ott]

Taurus, please note that _your_ version of SotBE on the campaign server is _not_ the official version. It's great that you are maintaining a fork like this, but please be aware that at this stage it is just a fork.

Changing the shamans into some kind of über-leader goes completely against the whole plot of the campaign -- did you even play the campaign through? They are weak and mostly useless units that need to be protected so they can get to the council. In 1.0rc1 I further increased their defence and HP, since they were still not as balanced as they should have been. They actually used to be fairly powerful when drain could go beyond 100% hp, but had not been completely rebalanced since that change.

[Cuyo Quiz]

With a "curse" attack i think slow could work. Having the older one be lvl2 with slow could make him a sorta dangerous bet in the battlefield, if they are kept fragile.

[Temuchin Khan]

All three are equally useless. They are weak and fragile and do not advance to something more useful (as the elvish shaman does).
When they appear in second scenario of SotBE and you play smart, you still have to be lucky to keep them alive.

Since I have taken over the responsiblity for maintaining and compleating SotBE, I was hoping to make them a bit more usefull. What I was thinking of was:

1. Give them advancement oppertunity

2. Keep them rather week and fragile but...

3. Give them leadership, with at least 4 advancment levels

4. Give them healing abilities

5. Give them slow

6. Maby on level 4 we could create some effect that makes the hexes around them dark during the day, similar to a Mage of Light.

These abilities of course will be split up between the four levels. Anyhow, it's just a rough draft/crazy idea. What does everyone else think?

I would suggest increasing their health, leaving them as they are in most other ways (maybe giving them a slow attack), and (to satisfy the curiosity of those who wonder why any Orc would possibly respect them), adding scenes in which they use their shamanistic powers to discover tactical, strategic, or other useful information. I mean, leadership and healing don't seem to fit with the Orcish shamans.

With no advances and with weak attacks, even with higher health, they would still not be useful on the battlefield, but protecting them would go from insanely difficult to difficult.

But hey, I'm just brainstorming.

[Taurus]

Taurus, please note that _your_ version of SotBE on the campaign server is _not_ the official version. It's great that you are maintaining a fork like this, but please be aware that at this stage it is just a fork.

Changing the shamans into some kind of über-leader goes completely against the whole plot of the campaign -- did you even play the campaign through? They are weak and mostly useless units that need to be protected so they can get to the council. In 1.0rc1 I further increased their defence and HP, since they were still not as balanced as they should have been. They actually used to be fairly powerful when drain could go beyond 100% hp, but had not been completely rebalanced since that change.

Sorry if I am sounding a little "assuming" and yes, I am aware that it is just a fork, and yes, I have played the whole campaign through and am fimilar with the plot and the shamons role in it.

Here is some of the reasoning behind my idea which - if people like the idea - I hope to eventually include in my "fork":

1. As the plot in SotBE indicates, the orcish shamons have the power to call upon the Great Horde, which would override any petty tribal squabbling and unite all the orcish forces on the great continant (correct me if I am wrong but that's the impression I got).

2. In order to get such a high degree of power over all the orcs, who usually don't really understand the value of thinkers and scollers, what must have an orc done to get such a position, or what kind of powers must he posess?

When you follow this reasoning you can come up with many kinds of pasts, each of which would affect the abiltiies of the shamons differently. As the shamons stand right now, I can't really think of a good enough story which would earn them the respect and obidence of the orcs. To me, they sound something like this, "Vrag the novice Orcish Shamon":

Vrag is a small week little orc who couldn't make it as a warrior or even as an archer. One of the older orcish shamons felt sorry for him and took him in and taught him some logic and philosophy, how to stab people with a dagger and yell and curse them so shrilly that it causes internal dammage to the brain and eardrums. Now he is honered and repected amousnts all orcs of all tribes alike and without his presence the great council will not be compleate.

Sounds a bit silly to me. How about the Vrag the old orcish shamon:

Vrag may have been a powerfull orc at one time but he has long since given up the bow and sword for a small dagger and a staff with a fancy ball at the end. His powerfull muscles and large figure have been so afflicted by the affects of old age that he is now indistinguishable from your run-of-the-mill skinny old man. His only deffence agaisnt old eneimes who wish to kill him are poking them with the little dagger of his or cursing them so loudley and srilly that they suffer internal dammage to their brains and eardrums. Desipte all this he is honered and repected amousnts all orcs of all tribes alike and without his presence the great council will not be compleate.

To me, it would sound much more logical if the orcish shamons had at least something to show for all the respect they are earning. My idea was to make a unit that is easy to kill on his own, and is thus vurlable and must be protected, but at the same time his presence would inspire and enliven any army he is with.

[Elvish_Pillager]

The Orcs of SotBE are not brutish as you imply. They do not value strength of the arm all that highly. They aren't evil at all: it was the humans who broke the alliance, remember.

[Temuchin Khan]

1. As the plot in SotBE indicates, the orcish shamons have the power to call upon the Great Horde, which would override any petty tribal squabbling and unite all the orcish forces on the great continant (correct me if I am wrong but that's the impression I got).

2. In order to get such a high degree of power over all the orcs, who usually don't really understand the value of thinkers and scollers, what must have an orc done to get such a position, or what kind of powers must he posess?

Orcs may not value abstract thought, but any warrior who wants to win will learn to value intelligent strategies and tactics, as well as any information that can be gained about the enemy's troop strength, abilities, strategies, and tactics. Orcish shamans may not be much on the battlefield, but if they can help the warriors in practical ways like this, it would make perfect sense for the warriors to respect them.

Really, we don't have to assume that Orcs don't realize the value of good generalship!

[Cuyo Quiz]

I'll take that among the orcs in Wesnoth (as most of them are only good for fierce fighting), being able to send out curses from afar that make the target weaker woulb be something to respect, add a shamanistic connection to the spiritual world and considerable management skills (unlike warlords and chieftains who are good to send men in battle). Then you got a group who can work as management with some special skills everyone respects.

That is my view of course.

[Taurus]

I'll take that among the orcs in Wesnoth (as most of them are only good for fierce fighting), being able to send out curses from afar that make the target weaker woulb be something to respect, add a shamanistic connection to the spiritual world and considerable management skills (unlike warlords and chieftains who are good to send men in battle). Then you got a group who can work as management with some special skills everyone respects.

That is my view of course.

Yes, I aggree both ways, that is exactally why I think orc shamons should at least have the leadership abilitiy. Even if you don't change any of ther stats but just make them level 2-3 or even 4 and give them leadership, then that would make more sense, IMHO anyway.

[Casual User]

I thinks the best is to keep the shamans as they are, maybe even make them a little more brittle, but give them leadership.

An interesting thing would be to make the novice lvl1, the normal lvl2 and the old one lvl3. That way, the older and more revered shaman would inspire the soldiers to great deeds. The novice won't really impress anyone.

They would still be a pain to keep alive and it wouldn't make them fighters. If anything, it adds a layer of strategy. The player would have to ask 'should I move them closer, giving my guys a bonus but risk losing them, or should I keep them back?' It really would make things more interesting in playing with them.

Leadership isn't really tactical ability. It would make no sense for tactical ability to affect only adjacent units, or to add damage. If you take leadership as, well, leadership : the ability to lead, inspiring those close enough to you to greater deeds; the mechanics make more sense. And it makes sense for men (okay, orcs) whose decisions are so binding to be, well, leaders of their kind.

P.S. Slow is a lot better than drain for curse...

[scott]

I thinks the best is to keep the shamans as they are, maybe even make them a little more brittle, but give them leadership.

An interesting thing would be to make the novice lvl1, the normal lvl2 and the old one lvl3. That way, the older and more revered shaman would inspire the soldiers to great deeds. The novice won't really impress anyone.

They would still be a pain to keep alive and it wouldn't make them fighters. If anything, it adds a layer of strategy. The player would have to ask 'should I move them closer, giving my guys a bonus but risk losing them, or should I keep them back?' It really would make things more interesting in playing with them.

Leadership isn't really tactical ability. It would make no sense for tactical ability to affect only adjacent units, or to add damage. If you take leadership as, well, leadership : the ability to lead, inspiring those close enough to you to greater deeds; the mechanics make more sense. And it makes sense for men (okay, orcs) whose decisions are so binding to be, well, leaders of their kind.

P.S. Slow is a lot better than drain for curse...

Ghandi was inspiring and he led a nation, but he couldn't make fighters more effective. Military leadership requires specific skills that not all leaders have.

Leadership (military) is definitely a tactical ability. Read a Medal of Honor citation sometime and see the effect of one extraordinary man in the trenches and his effect on those around him.

The shamans are props. I think it works best if it's kept that way.

[Taurus]

Ghandi was inspiring and he led a nation, but he couldn't make fighters more effective. Military leadership requires specific skills that not all leaders have.

Good point! But then again, Ghandi led india through a non-violent overthrow of the British. To me anyway, orcs and non-violence don't really seem to go together - in resolving major conflicts anyway.

Leadership (military) is definitely a tactical ability. Read a Medal of Honor citation sometime and see the effect of one extraordinary man in the trenches and his effect on those around him.

The shamans are props. I think it works best if it's kept that way.

Deffinaltey have some good points there but then again look at leaders like Julias Ceaser (sorry about the spelling, I don't think I have it right), or Alexander the Great. Before Julias Ceaser's time Rome was a democracy. One of the most important factors in his becoming the first emperor of the Roman Empire was his success as a miliatary leader. Alexander the Great is most well known and respected for all of his conquests. IMHO, the way to gain respect amoungst all the orcs, smart and stupid alike is to have at least some military success. Although, perhaps do to age, they are a lot less effictive on the battlefield, their exprience should deffinatley help guide and enilven the troops around them.[/b]