That "OVERPOWERED" DRAKE thing.

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Just how powerful are those boys? Assume a smallish MP map with a standard assortment of terrains.

They are low-tier. (Bottum 2)
9
10%
They are mid-tier. (Middle 2)
34
36%
They are top-tier. (somewhere in the area of 1st or 2nd best)
28
30%
They are God-Tier (hands down the most powerful faction, blowing away all competitors if used to their maximum potential)
10
11%
I'm not sure. It's a tough call.
13
14%
 
Total votes: 94

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Neoriceisgood wrote:Yeah, It's good that I tricked you into doing that, I almost lost.
Scenario: Drake Flare with 7 remaining HP, surrounded by 10-15 piercing units, calls out to a full HP White Mage, "Duel me!"

White Mage accepts duel, misses all magical shots, is hit by all 4 Flare ranged attacks, and goes from full HP to zero HP. :P
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Post by (S)elfish weirdo »

How are the (S)elfish ones overpowered? I used to think they were, but that was mainly due to the overpowered hunter, now that it has been balanced (first nerfed too weak and then slightly improved) I'd say that the (S)elfish ones are fairly balanced.

Caffeine cheese is overpowered... mmmmm caffeine cheese...

Also, I'm begging to believe that the Drake overpoweredness is more due to the treehugging freaks being weak against them than the drakes being strong by themselfs, since only dexterous archers and Hunters during day can exploit their pierce weakness... hopefully, they'll implent missile and solve this. (I believe northerners have problem with Drakes too since only archers during night is strong enought to use the pierce weakness)
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Post by Doc Paterson »

(S)elfish weirdo wrote:How are the (S)elfish ones overpowered? I used to think they were, but that was mainly due to the overpowered hunter, now that it has been balanced (first nerfed too weak and then slightly improved) I'd say that the (S)elfish ones are fairly balanced.
Of course the elves aren't overpowered....I don't think anyone could seriously argue that they were. They're just solid. :D
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

If anything they're slightly weak, because they were balanced back when all the other factions had tons of underpowered units.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

(S)elfish weirdo wrote:
Also, I'm begging to believe that the Drake overpoweredness is more due to the treehugging freaks being weak against them than the drakes being strong by themselfs, since only dexterous archers and Hunters during day can exploit their pierce weakness... hopefully, they'll implent missile and solve this. (I believe northerners have problem with Drakes too since only archers during night is strong enought to use the pierce weakness)
What is this missile?

An important thing to realise :idea: - Beating Drakes is more about them not being able to hold/sit on villages and less about their small weakness to pierce. They can't withstand any kind of focused attack; that's why they need to use their superior movement to try to create their own concentrated attacks. Northerners excel at swarming/filling up villages and space, and are actually really difficult to beat with Drakes, if played to perfection.

On a map like Charge, it's super tough to beat a Northerner player (of equal ability) with Drakes.

But nevermind all of this. Drakes balanced, Elves balanced. :)
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ereksos
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drakes vs notherner in charge

Post by ereksos »

i tend to believe that drakes is the best thing to beat northerner in charge beside northerner itself. especially if drakes has the first go. northerner's wolf is good at capturing and securing a village but outside of a vill they r weak and vulnerable to drakes blade attack. moreover, orcbow and grunt are slightly weaker than drake fighter 1 to 1 in my opinion, which makes the fighter a most superior unit vs. notherner.
notherners saviour is of course the most wonderful spearman, with those little things, notherner might still wins the day.
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Re: drakes vs notherner in charge

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

ereksos wrote:moreover, orcbow and grunt are slightly weaker than drake fighter 1 to 1 in my opinion,
Well of course, that's why they cost 12-14 and the Drake costs 17.
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Re: drakes vs notherner in charge

Post by Doc Paterson »

ereksos wrote: northerner's wolf is good at capturing and securing a village but outside of a vill they r weak and vulnerable to drakes blade attack.
That's why they should mainly move from village to village. Also, they have no blade weakness; all attacks against them except holy, which they resist, are unmodified.
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Post by ereksos »

while wolf does not have weakness to blade, drake fighter have resistance to blade :).
if drakes has first move, they don't hv to fight wolf outside a village. they r superior in movement compare to wolf considering the terrrain.
as for price, a wolf cost the same as a fighter.
EREKSOS
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

(S)elfish weirdo wrote:Also, I'm begging to believe that the Drake overpoweredness is more due to the treehugging freaks being weak against them than the drakes being strong by themselfs, since only dexterous archers and Hunters during day can exploit their pierce weakness... hopefully, they'll implent missile and solve this. (I believe northerners have problem with Drakes too since only archers during night is strong enought to use the pierce weakness)
What's wrong with just letting Elves be weak against Drakes?

And, again, what is "missile"? Technically, after all, ALL ranged weapons are missile weapons, so Elves already have "missile."
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Post by (S)elfish weirdo »

Doc Paterson wrote:
(S)elfish weirdo wrote:
Also, I'm begging to believe that the Drake overpoweredness is more due to the treehugging freaks being weak against them than the drakes being strong by themselfs, since only dexterous archers and Hunters during day can exploit their pierce weakness... hopefully, they'll implent missile and solve this. (I believe northerners have problem with Drakes too since only archers during night is strong enought to use the pierce weakness)
What is this missile?

An important thing to realise :idea: - Beating Drakes is more about them not being able to hold/sit on villages and less about their small weakness to pierce. They can't withstand any kind of focused attack; that's why they need to use their superior movement to try to create their own concentrated attacks. Northerners excel at swarming/filling up villages and space, and are actually really difficult to beat with Drakes, if played to perfection.

On a map like Charge, it's super tough to beat a Northerner player (of equal ability) with Drakes.

But nevermind all of this. Drakes balanced, Elves balanced. :)
The EP told me that someone suggested splitting pierce into pierce and missile, making drakes slightly more weak against missile, allowing more of the treehugging freaks to exploit the weaknesses of the drakes.

so what you are saying is that one has to go offensive against the drakes to win? that might explain the fact that I almost always lose to them, since I am a fairly defensive player.

The drakes got such a capability to achieve damage very fast, a strong clasher can do 9-4 during day without any resistances involved, they are also very fast...

maybe I should play a few games against you, cartographer, and we will see if I am doing wrong, if the treehugging freaks were meant to die at the hands of neorice's creation, or if the drakes just are overpowered.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

(S)elfish weirdo wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:
And how would that tell us whether or not they're overpowered? If I win, they're overpowered, and if I lose, they're not?

:wink:

There are a lot of players knocking on my door (a lot of them want rematches, and don't like the answer "I don't have time," so thus, the online aliases, which are immune to all acusations of cowardice. 8) ), but if we should meet under a perfect sun with all planets in proper alignment, I'd be more than happy to do some drake/elf testing with you. There've been some wild happenings in the map world as of late, and that's been taking a lot of my free-wesnoth time (cooking up new projects). Perhaps I will send you an explanatory PM some time in the near future.

I do think that the elves have it the hardest of any faction against Drakes, though I don't think the match is really noticeably unbalanced.
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Post by telly »

Why complain specifically about rebels vs drakes at all, I want to know. If theres one faction rebels have the best chance against its probably drakes. On a lot of typical maps they have next to no chance of beating knalgans or northerners or undead.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Rebels are quite even, to my mind, with Knalgans and Northerners. They do have a hard time against Undead, which is oddly a match that few people besides myself have complained about; rebels have no answer to Skeletons.
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Post by Cuyo Quiz »

Temuchin Khan wrote:
(S)elfish weirdo wrote:Also, I'm begging to believe that the Drake overpoweredness is more due to the treehugging freaks being weak against them than the drakes being strong by themselfs, since only dexterous archers and Hunters during day can exploit their pierce weakness... hopefully, they'll implent missile and solve this. (I believe northerners have problem with Drakes too since only archers during night is strong enought to use the pierce weakness)
What's wrong with just letting Elves be weak against Drakes?

And, again, what is "missile"? Technically, after all, ALL ranged weapons are missile weapons, so Elves already have "missile."
Missile is a damage type idea (yes, one more), and that sought to differentiate the effects from weapons like arrows or javelins from the effects of spears and what not. I'll search...

EDIT: And i found: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... ht=missile

EDIT THE REVENGE:
Dave wrote:I'm actually kinda open to a division into 'missile' attacks (mostly bows, a few other missile weapons) and 'impaling' attacks (spear, pike, lance, etc). 'Stabbing' attacks (short sword, dagger, etc) would remain 'blade' though.

This would allow us to do a few things: make some units very resistant against missile attacks due to their use of large shields. Make flying units vulnerable to missile attacks, which I think makes sense. Make horse-based units less vulnerable to missile attacks, although from a gameplay point of view I don't think this aspect is so bad at the moment because I think cavalry units do well enough against archers at the moment anyway.

We can keep this idea in mind for the development branch after 1.0.

David
The amount of rebelancing, depending on the modification, could be from reasonably doable to really hefty.
Last edited by Cuyo Quiz on October 6th, 2005, 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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