That "OVERPOWERED" DRAKE thing.

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Just how powerful are those boys? Assume a smallish MP map with a standard assortment of terrains.

They are low-tier. (Bottum 2)
9
10%
They are mid-tier. (Middle 2)
34
36%
They are top-tier. (somewhere in the area of 1st or 2nd best)
28
30%
They are God-Tier (hands down the most powerful faction, blowing away all competitors if used to their maximum potential)
10
11%
I'm not sure. It's a tough call.
13
14%
 
Total votes: 94

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Doc Paterson
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That "OVERPOWERED" DRAKE thing.

Post by Doc Paterson »

.....
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

They're Lawful units with such great movement capacity that they can practically always fight in the daylight if they don't mind losing villages. So, top-tier with 1gpv, mid-tier with 2gpv, and low-tier with any more.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

It's my opinion that they could use maybe a LITTLE toning down, mainly in the department of movement. Slow them down when they pass certain terrains and I'd be very happy with them. A lot of the sloppier Drake players would likely get frustrated and give up, but you know- that's quite alright.

Just to clarify:

I'd play Drakes regardless of their power; top or low tier I'd stick it out and find a way to win with them. What I don't like is the catch-phrase "Drakes are overpowered" that gets thrown out with little thought after people lose (there are a lot of bad sports on MP at times....I'm talking about scrubs that recruit all horsemen, then complain when your clashers pierce the **** out of them.)

Drakes want a little respect when they come home!

sing it-
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Elvish Pillager wrote: such great movement capacity
Yeah, this is the side of the Drakes that I'm opposed to. Let's let a little air out of their tires.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Yeah, see the "Making the Drakes less weird" thread in Developers' Discussions. The other change I'd like is if they could stop grinning!
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Elvish Pillager wrote:Yeah, see the "Making the Drakes less weird" thread in Developers' Discussions. The other change I'd like is if they could stop grinning!
Nice concepts in that thread. Your proposals were most excellent.

Do you know what a Drake Axe-Hurler levels up into?

A Drake AXE-HEART.

:P

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, BIG GRIN= LOVER OF THE LAW.

I always knew they'd officially become lawful some day; I've known since I first looked upon that jolly drake-ish grin.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
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Post by DemonSax »

I was in the drake hate camp since first being introduced to Wesnoth back in the 8.6 days. The three perceptions that first formed was that they all had lots of hit points, they could fly, and they hit hard. Since playing 9.1 my opinion has radically changed and I'm not sure how much of that is the tweaks that have been made, or merely my perceptions after actually trying to play them for awhile.

They do have a lot of hit points, but their low defense offsets this and, if anything, could make it a liability. Their fire damage is a small advantage, but their only fire powerhouse (Drake Burner) costs more than a mage and it's attack isn't magical. This only leaves them with flight which is being addressed in the drake weirdness forum. If their flight gets toned down a touch I'll happily considered them roughly balanced and stop my silent seething when I play against them.
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Post by Big Bad Joe »

I think that their movement is a real problem. Maybe it is just I am not a top player, but I am not able to win against Drakes on Charge.. You can defend - then opossing player will ruin you economically, you can attack, but with their superior movement, opossing player will always have an advantage of fast recuperation.. Just a thought.. Try to play charge against Soliton with Drakes anyone..
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Post by The Juli Girl »

Do women have the right to vote in wesnoth?

:D
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Post by (S)elfish weirdo »

wesnoth is a dictatorship, no one has voting rights..
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Post by The Juli Girl »

(S)elfish weirdo wrote:wesnoth is a dictatorship, no one has voting rights..
Oh good. We're all in it together then.

As for Drakes, I voted mid-tier. Upper-mid.
Woke up, it was a Chelsea morning, and the first thing that I knew- There was milk and toast and honey, and a bowl of oranges too- And the sun poured in like butterscotch and stuck to all my senses.....
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Post by Doc Paterson »

I want to know who voted for God Tier. Confess! :P
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Post by Jetrel »

Elvish Pillager wrote:The other change I'd like is if they could stop grinning!
No, seeing as how that is what they derive most of their powers from...
Big Bad Joe wrote:I think that their movement is a real problem. Maybe it is just I am not a top player, but I am not able to win against Drakes on Charge.. You can defend - then opossing player will ruin you economically, you can attack, but with their superior movement, opossing player will always have an advantage of fast recuperation.. Just a thought.. Try to play charge against Soliton with Drakes anyone..
Yeah, I played against Soliton, Loyalists versus Drakes, 1 gp/village 100gp start, on a small map.

The first game, I played loyalists, and he played drakes. He won.
The second game, I played drakes, and he played loyalists. I won.

And in both cases, it was almost wholly due to the strength of the saurians, not the drakes.

If you have enough money to hire a good cavalry force, drakes can be routed at scouting - their flyers are not much faster on open ground than horsemen, and not much cheaper, but a few horsemen (not one - a few, so as to neutralize bad luck) can almost always just kill a few flyers, and take whatever villages they had. Saurians really mess this up, which is why the games went the way they did.

I almost think if the saurians ranged attack, at level-1, was reduced to one spear, they would be better balanced.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Jetryl wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:The other change I'd like is if they could stop grinning!
No, seeing as how that is what they derive most of their powers from...


I almost think if the saurians ranged attack, at level-1, was reduced to one spear, they would be better balanced.
Agreed on both counts. A depressed drake is the sorriest sight you'll ever see. :)

Reduce the Skirmisher to one spear....yeah, that'd be pretty good I think. Most of my power lies with the Tribalist anyway (and that's my secret, so keep it to yourself). 8)
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
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I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
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Post by (S)elfish weirdo »

I voted Mid-tier at first, but I'd probably have voted top-tier if I had played a little more against them before, a good drake player has the best skirmishers in the game, able to annoy the hell out of you by stealing your villages and if you do leave your posts to hunt them down, you've lost your defensive position, and during night (saurians are so fast they get to pick the time of day) saurians hit back quite hard for being skirmishers as well, even ranged. the burners have 6-4 attacks, are fast, and lawful and thus do 8-4 (or is it 7-4?) damage during day which they can choose to fight during, the attack is a fire attack which ignores most resistances and it's meele attack is quite nasty for a ranged unit: 7-2 while they have quite bad terrain modifiers, they got 40% on quite alot of terrains still allowing them to dodge almost half hits, and they have 42 HP enabling them to take quite a beating: so in summary they are a fast, lawful archer that has ALOT of fire damage and aren't nearly as fragile as mages, I'd suggest a cost increase from 21 to 22 and meele damage decrease from 7-2 to 6-2 and reducing the saurian to just one spear sounds fine to me, would make it alot more painless to take them out with mages...
And in case you don't trust me, The sick tom whacked the hell out of me using drakes on BLITZ, people who have played against me on blitz should know that no one is supposed to do that, I killed a few more drakes than he killed elfs, but as soon as I left a village without a unit on it, there was a saurian stealing it, so he dominated me completly economically, fortunanently he disconnected before My front collapsed... but playing against a good drake player is a Damn scary thing... (specially if you're elf since woses are worthless and they (nearly) all strike back against my archers).
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