Wesnoth Difficulty

[quartex]

I know this has been discussed before, but I really think easy difficulty should be a made a bit easier. Normal should be the normal difficulty people are playing at, not easy. I just beat level 2, after reloading saves at least five times. I've read a lot about how you NEED to channel your experience to a few units to beef them up for later levels. This takes a lot of trial and error because either enemy units die too quickly, or they slaughter an important unit when they counterattack. It's also a pain to attack a unit when it is about to level up, it seems to gain experience by defending, which can cause it to get even more powerful and beefier, just as you got it down to 5 HP. I just find it irksome that level 2 is so hard, I think the easy level should be more designed for the casual gamer. The real problem is having not played the game much, I don't know the level progression tree, so it is hard to know beforehand whether to choose an elf captain or hero, for example. It gets annoying when you have to replay several levels becuase of a bad decision you made back at the beginning of the game. I know this game is designed to demand good strategy, but I just think easy should be more lenient on the beginner. Once I learn the ropes on easy mode, i'll gladly play normal, but I'm reading too many reports of people struggling on easy.

A side problem is that i can't figure out what advanced attributes like leadership mean, the manual only references the starting 5 attributes, and I can't find descriptions of the others in the wiki section. I know this is a work under progress, but am I missing something?

I conclusion, easy mode should allow people to explore the various unit types and learn about the game, but should not be so frusterating as to drive people away in the first few levels. I really like the game, but I really hate having to go back and replay levels I already beat, and so I'm worrying that unless I pick just the right units to upgrade to (this is similar to roleplayers who have their characters planned out to level 20 before they start playing) I'm going to be screwed come level 15 or whatever. And yes, I could memorize the tables of units, but isn't it more fun for casual gamers to learn the units by playing the game? Add more difficult levels if necessary, but in 0.7 I'd really like an easier "easy" difficulty.

[fmunoz]

The difficult sttings need still a bit of evaluation
You dont have to need to worry about what units need to advance just try to have one or two of each type. A mixed army could give you more choices in the future.

[Dave]

I just beat level 2, after reloading saves at least five times. I've read a lot about how you NEED to channel your experience to a few units to beef them up for later levels. This takes a lot of trial and error because either enemy units die too quickly, or they slaughter an important unit when they counterattack.

Okay, so did you save/reload about five times because you couldn't beat the scenario, or because you lost some units?

If the latter, then I suggest you play on and live with it. Loading the saved game every time you lose a unit is only going to lead to frustrating perfectionism.

The later scenarios are designed to take into account players having had lost troops earlier on.

I just find it irksome that level 2 is so hard

I hope that you have read the scenario objectives....you do know that you only have to hold out until turns run out, right?

A side problem is that i can't figure out what advanced attributes like leadership mean, the manual only references the starting 5 attributes, and I can't find descriptions of the others in the wiki section. I know this is a work under progress, but am I missing something?

Right-click on the unit and select 'Unit Description' and it will describe how the unit's abilities work.

We are looking at ways to make this easier though.

I'm worrying that unless I pick just the right units to upgrade to (this is similar to roleplayers who have their characters planned out to level 20 before they start playing) I'm going to be screwed come level 15 or whatever.

This isn't going to happen. No-one has sat around designing scenario fourteen, chuckling to themself and saying "if the player doesn't have four arch mages, three paladins, and two shydes by this stage they will be doomed!"

However, it is possible that 'easy' level is too difficult, and we do have to review difficulty levels in the future.

David

[quartex]

Dave, thanks for the tips. I was probably overreacting a bit last night. You'e right in level 2 isn't that hard to survive 12 turns. I suppose like many levels I often have to play it at least twice, it isusually only after I lose once that I realize how to win. But that's pretty normal, so I'm not complaining. I suppose in an advanced version a unit tree would be cool thing to have - like the tech tree in civ 3, so it would be easier to see your progression. Anyway, I'll start worrying quite so much about having the perfect set of units, but I still think the majority of player should be playing on normal difficulty and not have to play on easy to survive. Thanks for continuing to tweak the difficulty levels.

[Kamahawk]

Okay, so did you save/reload about five times because you couldn't beat the scenario, or because you lost some units?

If the latter, then I suggest you play on and live with it. Loading the saved game every time you lose a unit is only going to lead to frustrating perfectionism.

Frustrating, BUT achiveable perfectionism, guess how many units I lost in the vally of death?

[miyo]

Kamahawk,

I lost no units in Valley of Death (if I remember correctly) *smile*

Replay is available *grin*

- Miyo

[Kamahawk]

Me either

[quartex]

If I'm correct miyo you're one of the main developers of Wesnoth, so it makes sense you know the game inside and out and have honed your strategy to a fine point. But the rest of us shouldn't be held to quite as high a level of excellence.

(I realize you were just boasting, and congratulations, I didn't mean to jump on you for your comment. It would be interesting to see the replay)

[miyo]

I am not really a developer - I rather consider myself as contributor. I have not written any code to Wesnoth (except few lines of Perl for random_map.pl, which can be found under utils/). I have done some mass cfg-file changes that were asked by Dave, mainly I am taking care of many administrative tasks that no-one wants to know about *grin*

But yes, I have done a lot playtesting (especially 0.4.x and 0.5.x) so I am quite familiar with the game. My replays are every now and then made available for anyone to see how I am playing the game (just in case anyone is interested), sometimes they are test runs for different kind of tactics (e.g. "Druidish" which proved that 'cure' is very powerful).

- Miyo

[telex4]

I'd have to agree that "easy" is too hard. I find almost all Free Software games are too hard, probably because those who make the game set the difficulty levels, and having developed and played the game for a while I'm guessing they lose the ability to tell what it is like for a newcomer.

I like a game where I can enter on easy, maybe lose the first level the first time when I work out the basics, and then progress on through the next few levels without too much difficulty. Then it should start getting harder. But with wesnoth, I found even on easy that I struggled on almost all of the maps. That could just be because I'm rubbish, but I'm fairly good at games like Freeciv and Total Annihilation, so I can't be that bad!

I think in easy the enemies need to have much less gold, or perhaps no movement for the first two rounds. Unless you learn overnight all the tactics about keeping units in packs, levelling them up, using healers and so on the game can be very hard. Since few users will come to the forums looking for tactical advice (and indeed few should have to) lots of users will simply be flailing around finding things out by trial and error. The tutorials will really help this, but you still need practice, and I think the best way to give this would be to make 'easy' quite a lot easier.

Ideally, most users would start on easy, get confident by about level 10 and then either finish it off or go back to medium where they could then begin to test themselves.

[Guest]

(sorry about my bad english)
I don't know the name of the mission, but it's the mision where you are surrounded by enemies and have to defend yourself and Li'sa against the enemy leader and have to kill him.
I guess, I tryed the mission for about 100 times until no important person died (especially Li'sa).
This depended really on the randomness in the game, not on my tactics. These damned endless WAVES of trolls killed all of her armies while I was fighting against the trolls attacking me and her.
The next mission ("find the sceptre of foo and grab it with Konrad or Li'sa) is really not playable!
Even when I walk on the shortest way (beginning in the first round) to one of both (bottle-neck) ways, I am awaited by HORDES of trolls and there is only place for a single unit to fight against these beasts. This unit can be attacked by 2 enemy units on the right side and by three units on the upper left side of the map. No chance!

Oh, and I found a nice bug that made trolls really ugly (I hope it's no feature!):
When you hit a troll (or another enemy unit) he gets experience-points.
Even when you kill him, he gets EP! I had several fights where I should have killed an Enemy (lowered his hitpoints to zero or lower) but because of EP he becomes a next-level Creature with full hitpoints instead of dying!

It cannot be done with good tactics and it cannot be done with much luck either. That's really frustrating.

This has been all in the easiest difficulty. What the hell shall be done in the higher difficulties??

[fmunoz]

That level, "A hasty aliance", need a bit of rebalance, it was created for the last version and not tested fully... meanwhile you could edit the scenario file by yourself and try more sane difficult levels...

[miyo]

Guest,

feel free to check here how different scenarios have been completed (difficulty: normal) - http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... .php?t=511

- Miyo

[Dave]

Oh, and I found a nice bug that made trolls really ugly (I hope it's no feature!):
When you hit a troll (or another enemy unit) he gets experience-points.
Even when you kill him, he gets EP! I had several fights where I should have killed an Enemy (lowered his hitpoints to zero or lower) but because of EP he becomes a next-level Creature with full hitpoints instead of dying!

Every unit gets a small amount of experience for being in a battle, whether they are attacking or defending.

No unit that has just been killed should get experience. If you have found this to happen, it's a bug, please send a saved game which exhibits the bug, and file a bug report.

David

[Feldegast]

No-one has sat around designing scenario fourteen, chuckling to themself and saying "if the player doesn't have four arch mages, three paladins, and two shydes by this stage they will be doomed!"

I disagree. If e.g. at Ford of Abez your Konrad is not "quick" (I've seen replays where he is quick, 7 moves, not just 6), and you don't have a Merman Lord or two, this can make a huge difference. Ordinary Heroes, Marshalls or Captains are to slow to be helpful. Avengers (6 moves) are helpful. Knights have the drawback of being hit too hard upon counter-attack.

When however you have an Arch Mage or Great Mage already, you can send a Gryphon to the far side and let the Mage kill even the Orc Commander, for example, and let him fall into the back of the approaching Orc units.

Similary, when you don't have any good and also quick Dwarfs after "Lost General", you're pretty much hopeless in a Hasty Alliance or later.

Every unit gets a small amount of experience for being in a battle, whether they are attacking or defending.

Which is a major problem when you've wounded a Troll near death, but he receives one additional XP and is advanced to level 3, getting back all his HP in one turn.