Wesnoth on Liberapay

General feedback and discussion of the game.

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Pentarctagon
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Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by Pentarctagon » April 5th, 2019, 2:09 pm

Greetings!

We are happy to announce that Wesnoth is now able to accept donations on Liberapay. While Wesnoth does rely on the work of dedicated volunteers, no project can function completely cost-free. Revenue from the Apple App Store and from donations goes towards maintaining our servers, websites, and commissioning new art and music.
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Adamira
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by Adamira » May 27th, 2019, 10:57 pm

It would be nice to make a transparent account page, where people could see how exactly are the money spent.

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doofus-01
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by doofus-01 » May 28th, 2019, 1:35 am

But then people could see how we were subverting democracy and civilization in general. Why would we want that?
(Seriously, what are you implying?)
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by Pentarctagon » May 28th, 2019, 5:26 pm

Adamira wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 10:57 pm
It would be nice to make a transparent account page, where people could see how exactly are the money spent.
While I understand where you're coming from, I don't think a break down of how (currently) $2.81 per week is spent would be especially useful for anyone.
doofus-01 wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 1:35 am
But then people could see how we were subverting democracy and civilization in general. Why would we want that?
(Seriously, what are you implying?)
I think he just wants to know what any money he donates is going to be used for rather than trying to imply anything negative.
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by BTIsaac » May 29th, 2019, 9:11 am

doofus-01 wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 1:35 am
But then people could see how we were subverting democracy and civilization in general. Why would we want that?
(Seriously, what are you implying?)
It's perfectly reasonable. I heard of scandals where the administrator of a website started running virus and popup ads and repeatedly asking for donations, both from users and other staff members, and later it turned out he spent all the ad and donation money on meth. He continued begging clueless users for donations even after he got fired. Long story short, shady folks like that are the reason we can't have nice things.

Also, what the actual heck is up with that hostile passive-agressive tone? I've seen you do that from time to time.

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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by josteph » May 29th, 2019, 11:56 am

If we ask for donations, we should be transparent how the money is spent. That's pretty much the ground rules for asking for donations.

I've asked discord about the financials, I'll let you know what I learn.

edit: Vultraz says financials aren't publicly available at this time (I don't know what he plans for the future).

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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by Pentarctagon » May 29th, 2019, 6:36 pm

josteph wrote:
May 29th, 2019, 11:56 am
If we ask for donations, we should be transparent how the money is spent. That's pretty much the ground rules for asking for donations.

I've asked discord about the financials, I'll let you know what I learn.

edit: Vultraz says financials aren't publicly available at this time (I don't know what he plans for the future).
The Liberapay description currently says:
Donations made will go to the Wesnoth, Inc non-profit, and will be used to pay for server hosting, art commissions, and other work necessary for maintaining and further improving the game.
How would you word that instead, or what more specific information should be available?
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by josteph » May 29th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
May 29th, 2019, 6:36 pm
The Liberapay description currently says:
Donations made will go to the Wesnoth, Inc non-profit, and will be used to pay for server hosting, art commissions, and other work necessary for maintaining and further improving the game.
How would you word that instead, or what more specific information should be available?
Tax identification number, the precise class of non-profit (for example, 501(c)3), form 990, GAAP financial statements (P&L report, balance sheet, etc)...

At least, that's what other non-profits seem to publish.

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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by doofus-01 » June 3rd, 2019, 5:05 am

BTIsaac wrote:
May 29th, 2019, 9:11 am
doofus-01 wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 1:35 am
But then people could see how we were subverting democracy and civilization in general. Why would we want that?
(Seriously, what are you implying?)
It's perfectly reasonable. I heard of scandals where the administrator of a website started running virus and popup ads and repeatedly asking for donations, both from users and other staff members, and later it turned out he spent all the ad and donation money on meth. He continued begging clueless users for donations even after he got fired. Long story short, shady folks like that are the reason we can't have nice things.
No, it's not reasonable, by itself. I walk into a coffee shop and demand to know exactly how the tip-jar money is being spent, I should expect some hard feelings, even if I paid for a coffee. Not a perfect analogy, but at least as relevant as your second-hand scandals.
Pentarctagon wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 5:26 pm
I think he just wants to know what any money he donates is going to be used for rather than trying to imply anything negative.
OK, but what if it was all going to beer and new shoes? So what? Not implying that's what's happening, but if you play the game and want to give the people involved in Wesnoth some money in return, how much should you really expect to know? If one developer is hording it all somehow, the other contributors will have something to say about it.

If we're obligated to publish the finances for some reason, then we should, but otherwise it's another task (and a somewhat pointless one, as you indicated with the $2.81/week) that just opens us to criticism if we fail to maintain it properly. And all for very little gain.
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by Pentarctagon » June 3rd, 2019, 5:54 am

doofus-01 wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 5:05 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 5:26 pm
I think he just wants to know what any money he donates is going to be used for rather than trying to imply anything negative.
OK, but what if it was all going to beer and new shoes? So what? Not implying that's what's happening, but if you play the game and want to give the people involved in Wesnoth some money in return, how much should you really expect to know? If one developer is hording it all somehow, the other contributors will have something to say about it.

If we're obligated to publish the finances for some reason, then we should, but otherwise it's another task (and a somewhat pointless one, as you indicated with the $2.81/week) that just opens us to criticism if we fail to maintain it properly. And all for very little gain.
As per the original post made about creating the Board:
Dave wrote:
August 31st, 2016, 6:36 am
I want to hold nominations and then elections for a board of three members who will be responsible for the following:

- Collecting a revenue stream for Wesnoth, Inc.
- Publishing reports on our finances in a transparent and open fashion
- Assigning funds to spend on Wesnoth and other related game projects. Particularly to art commissions and server/infrastructure maintenance.
Also, as far as I know, the Board members are the only people who would have access to this information, so most contributors wouldn't know how the money is used either.
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by josteph » June 3rd, 2019, 8:46 am

doofus-01 wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 5:05 am
If we're obligated to publish the finances for some reason, then we should,
Some people may not donate unless we publish financial data, so publishing may generate us income.
doofus-01 wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 5:05 am
but otherwise it's another task (and a somewhat pointless one, as you indicated with the $2.81/week) that just opens us to criticism if we fail to maintain it properly.
???

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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by BTIsaac » June 3rd, 2019, 9:10 am

doofus-01 wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 5:05 am
No, it's not reasonable, by itself. I walk into a coffee shop and demand to know exactly how the tip-jar money is being spent, I should expect some hard feelings, even if I paid for a coffee. Not a perfect analogy, but at least as relevant as your second-hand scandals.
Tipping is not the same as giving money to game developers with the expectation that it will make the game easier to produce. YandereDev is an example of a game developer who's been sitting on his game for almost a decade promising to work on the game, he's living entirely off the donations of people who expect him to deliver on his promises. But aside from adding more features without actually working on core gameplay, all he does is livestreams.

This is not the same as paying for a coffee, getting said coffee, getting a receipt, and leaving the change behind because you are satisfied with the service and think the people deserve more. You're giving the tip for something you already got, not for something you're being promised.

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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by Pentarctagon » June 10th, 2019, 12:32 am

An update on this, from #development on Discord:
quarterly.png
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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by josteph » June 13th, 2019, 8:15 pm

Rose asked on Discord today about accepting bitcoin. He said that might make some individuals more likely to donate. How hard would it be for us to set up acceptance of bitcoin donations? We don't have to own BTC, we just need to be able to receive them. In fact, there are probably services that will accept BTC on our behalf and forward them into our bank account in USD.

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Re: Wesnoth on Liberapay

Post by rosecryptodotcom » June 14th, 2019, 2:26 am

josteph wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 8:15 pm
Rose asked on Discord today about accepting bitcoin. He said that might make some individuals more likely to donate. How hard would it be for us to set up acceptance of bitcoin donations? We don't have to own BTC, we just need to be able to receive them. In fact, there are probably services that will accept BTC on our behalf and forward them into our bank account in USD.
Yes, indeed - there are in fact many services that can do that. I run an educational site that explains all this stuff, so I'm more than willing to help you guys in whatever ways you need. Very happy to answer questions / perform the legwork if need be!

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