Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

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Gnome42
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Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by Gnome42 »

Figured I'd get two-in-one and save ya'll some bandwidth. And if any of this information is available elsewhere, and I just am too much of a noob to find it, please let me know.

1: In Civ2 the range of ranged attacks increase as technology make for better bows and guns. Are there any units in BfW that have a longer range of one hex?
If not, how come? I understand there needs to be a balance of power, but surely some campaigns might allow for such special capabilities?

2: How old is this game? What is its history? Who made it, and why? Are there more free, turn-based strategy games like this one? I started playing it because these kinds of games is all my computer can run, and also because I am a big Civ2 fan. Sid Meyer was an interesting fella, don't you think?
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Gnome42
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by Gnome42 »

Thanks, Ravana! I tried searching but I must have used a wrong keyword cos I got totally different results.
Maybe when I'm more adept at this game i'll try to implement some add-ons and try this "long range" stuff. Man, howitzers in Civ2.... Those were the days!
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GunChleoc
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by GunChleoc »

If you are looking for a Civilization-like game, try Freeciv :)

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Eagle_11
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by Eagle_11 »

Ranged attacks existed in an very early build but then got entirely removed due to whatever unintelligent reason.
9 out of 10 players will ask for this, so what was the point for removing it's fundamental framework entirely from the core instead coding it but simply not using it ?
And cant it be simply re-implemented now instead having to rely on rightclick based workarounds ?

kurt751
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by kurt751 »

I was initially surprise by the lack of "real" ranged attacks, as it makes things like support fire impossible; But I can live with the current way things are done. It's a scirrors-paper-stone game where units have (potentially) two different attack possibilities, and this adds some complexity to the tactical aspect.

Not to say I would be sad if BfW started implementing real ranged fire (from a distance), but I can live with the current way of doing things. Just consider it as very short range ranged attacks... :roll:

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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by Tad_Carlucci »

How would a counter-attack work? The archer fires from 1 hex removed, over the fighter. The counter-attack damages who? The fighter? Does he get a counter-counter-attack?

It seems to me the current system, while it does feel lacking, offers the advantage of allowing the attacked unit to counter directly against the attacking unit.

Otherwise, it's really a request for a risk-free attack where no defender can counter.
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watbesh
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by watbesh »

Multi-tile-long ranged attacks are removed seemingly because "it would be very difficult to protect units from dying". I haven't tried old versions which had these attacks, so I actually have no idea how difficult it was to protect units from projectiles.

I suppose it's still possible to balance the game with the existence of this kind of ranged attacks... basically by increasing units' HP, nerfing projectile-based attacks accordingly, and perhaps moving some Weapon Specials like Slows/Poison to non-projectile attacks (or "ranged" attacks with point-blank range). And it might provide a healthy dose of complexity.

But honestly, I myself doubt this change would be worth the efforts they would have to make. There must have been a lot of changes that make old codes incompatible with current versions.
Last edited by watbesh on July 29th, 2016, 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kurt751
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by kurt751 »

Tad_Carlucci wrote:How would a counter-attack work?
If the archer behind a spearman fires over his head, the target can't possibly counter-attack the archers, except using a ranged attack himself, and in this it's just the same as today: If an archer fires upon an unit without missile attack, that unit won't be able to retaliate. No change.

The only change of ranged attacks is that you can reinforce the attack of a given unit by having another unit fire at the same target - from a distance. It's the principle of support fire. I guess it's difficult to explain to non-military people, but there are many things like that which seem counter-intuitive at first glance, "kill zones", "fireballs" (clue: has nothing to do with fire or mages :mrgreen:), and so on. All those aren't possible in BfW, but then again this game isn't about training West End graduates.

kurt751
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by kurt751 »

watbesh wrote:Multi-tile-long ranged attacks are removed seemingly because "it would be very difficult to protect units from dying".
That's what war is about, isn't it? In war, soldiers die, that's what they're there for (even if their officers pretend the contrary)... :roll:
Now seriously, the only thing that changes is that there are indeed more casualties since instead of 2-3, you get 5-6 units potentially attacking a single one. If your pet hero dies it's bad, but then again, this is more a tactical game, isn't it? :?:

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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by Tad_Carlucci »

So a unit is surrounded. It has LOTS of hit points, and can survive all six of the spearmen it faces. But, now, it also has to worry about the TWELVE spearmen behind them throwing javelins? That's up to 222HP damage, nearly double the 126HP threat it faces from just the six, now. Gonna be real hard to balance that, I should think.

ETA So your unit would survive the 6-spearman ring. And you have the force to free it next turn. But now you need to take out not four, but NINE spearman. So much for your tank pulling a bunch of wimps in for the slaughter.
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kurt751
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by kurt751 »

Tad_Carlucci wrote:Gonna be real hard to balance that, I should think.
You wouldn't. You would have to admit that if you got your unit into such a pickle, it's gone, dead...
It's sure it would need some rather big changes in player strategy, as units would be much more fragile, and you would want to keep them together so they won't find themselves in the situation you just described...

But here we're losing time discussing something that isn't. As I said, Wesnoth is fine like it is.

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Gyra_Solune
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by Gyra_Solune »

I think another part of ranged attacks not having tile range is that tiles are decently large-ish and by my estimates only heavy ranged weaponry like siege catapults/cannons and modern firearms could possibly cover that length, neither of which are present to any degree in the game. Hexes Are Possibly Miles Apart after all, and IMO it makes sense for a tile to be, say, a mile or two in any direction? Average human walks at 3 mph (probably more like 5 on the march), a turn is, assuming a day in Wesnoth's setting is 24 hours, about 4 hours long, hence your average 5MP unit is moving anywhere from 12 to 20 miles per turn, hence a tile could be from 2 to 4 miles wide if you assume you're really sending soldiers far out. Even assuming soldiers take periodic breaks and aren't on the march for 6 hours straight and so their 'functional' movement speed is like 2 mph (it doesn't sound unreasonable for conscripted troops to be expected to move 4mph nonstop for that length of time historically though), I'd still say the minimum is a mile-ish per tile...which is a lot longer than the absolute maximum range of the largest bows possible (which max out at 300-ish yards, most common bows would get more like 200), even longer than standard early muskets like the Thunderers use (which only went 150), and much longer than the typical accurate combat range of both (which would be about 50 yards).

I think most are used to Civilization, especially the obvious compare of Civ V, where basic archers do shoot across tiles (and in fact can shoot across two with a promotion)...even though basic units only have 2MP...and a turn can be decades, if not centuries, leaving it uncertain how large a tile is, especially since a map is going to be around the size of a planet, but making it absolutely certain that they are much larger than anything short of ICBMs could cover in most standard circumstances. In any event, it also might be a matter of how the information is displayed. What you look at on screen in Wesnoth is a bunch of little sprites standing around a stone's throw away from each other, and if you use them as reference a whole map shouldn't be much bigger than a supermarket, but of course each sprite is dramatically upscaled for ease of reference. The way I like to see it is to view each unit as more like a small platoon of perhaps a dozen or two units and they're arranged at whatever edge of their current tile makes most sense for the situation. Thus a unit isn't engaging another from the center of each tile but instead it's a scuffle going on, from the map's perspective, all along the line that divides both tiles.

What was chosen to define 'ranged' attacks as different from 'melee' attacks is simply that melee is the default for a unit to have. Any given faction's most basic, cheap, usable infantry is in most cases a melee unit with none or limited ranged ability (exceptions being the Khalifate's Jundi and the Undead's Dark Adept, arguably). So what makes a bowman special from a guy with a sword is that a bowman will be able to pelt a large number of enemies with no retaliation for a while, while a guy with a sword is going to face resistance from almost any enemy even if they can't use their primary ranged weaponry to their advantage in the engagement.

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Eagle_11
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by Eagle_11 »

My point is, that this game cannot be really modded beyond sticks and blades era medieval, you cant make anything wwII themed, space ship combat, or even napoleonic era without the capability to have multi-hex attacks.
This lack of an vital function surely has reduced the modder's interest in this game and would be the best of it if it can simply get re-implemented. I do not care if this ever gets used in the mainline, the capacity should be there, existing, present and ready to use by UMC.
Besides have to point out the absurdity in the fact that another turn based game: Eador:Genesis, made over the span of an decade by only one russian man has this ranged attacks capability implemented, but wesnoth as an collaberated team-effort had this got removed and has it no more.

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ForestDragon
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Re: Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

Post by ForestDragon »

Eagle_11 wrote:My point is, that this game cannot be really modded beyond sticks and blades era medieval, you cant make anything wwII themed, space ship combat, or even napoleonic era without the capability to have multi-hex attacks.
This lack of an vital function surely has reduced the modder's interest in this game and would be the best of it if it can simply get re-implemented. I do not care if this ever gets used in the mainline, the capacity should be there, existing, present and ready to use by UMC.
Besides have to point out the absurdity in the fact that another turn based game: Eador:Genesis, made over the span of an decade by only one russian man has this ranged attacks capability implemented, but wesnoth as an collaberated team-effort had this got removed and has it no more.
hmmm... i guess it can like 'vision' wml part, it's usable, but not used in mainline. it can be a good idea to add multi-hex attacks like that, so that only modders really use it at all
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