New Campaigns?

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panamaniac
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New Campaigns?

Post by panamaniac » April 6th, 2016, 5:14 am

Hi guys, I went crazy on Wesnoth about 3 or 4 years ago. Love this game. Decided to come back and see if there are any new campaigns. Any way to see campaign release dates? I looked them over and about all of them look like ones I remember. I remember Under the Burning Sun being really cool.

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Paulomat4
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Paulomat4 » April 6th, 2016, 6:26 am

Hello panamaniac and welcome to the Forums!

Depends if you're looking for Add-On or mainline campaigns. While some have been modified, no new mainline campaigns have been added to the game, mainly die to a lack of developpers to maintain them. Tons of new umc campaigns have been added to the add-on server though, so I can only suggest you to check them out!
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Aldarisvet
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 6th, 2016, 7:36 am

Paulomat4 wrote: no new mainline campaigns have been added to the game, mainly die to a lack of developpers to maintain them
Well, I apologise, but this is not true. There are many other reasons, main of which is limitation of the size of the source, but definitely maintaining a campaign is not a hard work at all. I suspect that many would take responsibility to maintain their own campaign forever just for making it mainline.
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Paulomat4
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Paulomat4 » April 6th, 2016, 8:00 am

this is off-topic but I'm going to answer anyway.
There are many other reasons, main of which is limitation of the size of the source
How much space does your average campaign on the add-on server take? 10-15mb if it is not super image heavy like BMR, The amaranthine stone or To Lands unknown. Look at your own one, 6,7mb, mine has 17mb and already tons of images. That's not really what matters, especially considering that wesnoth is nowadays only 400mb big (in a time where high end games can take 2-3 gb of space). Also look at the recent announcements, the developpers ARE looking for new maintainers for the mainline campaigns. AFAIK only Zookeeper is maintaining the mainline campaigns, maybe beetlenaut as well but I'm not sure.
I suspect that many would take responsibility to maintain their own campaign forever just for making it mainline.
I would probably do the same but you can't just be sure of that.. Interests change, life changes, etc... There's no way to guarantee that you'll be able to take care of your campaign forever.

I've been around the forum long enough to tell you that discussions about why no new mainline campaigns have been added always end with this argument.
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Aldarisvet
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 6th, 2016, 8:23 am

IMHO average UMC campaign is far better than average mainline, because mainline ones simply deeply outdatted in all aspects (for example, most of them looks quite similar tactically), but the main advantage of mainline campaigns are professionally made portraits.

And the topicstarter probably has no idea about UMC campaigns.
I must confess that I was in the same situation before I came to the forum, I had no Idea about custom campaigns. It is absoultely logical because what "Add-ons" button means is absoultely not obvious. I would recommend put in the bottom of the list of mainline campains additional line 'Get more campaigns' that would redirect to Add-ons server.

Panamaniac, to get more campaigns, just put 'Add-ons' button on the main menu, there you will see really huge number of user-made campagins.
Paulomat4 wrote: I've been around the forum long enough to tell you that discussions about why no new mainline campaigns have been added always end with this argument.
I just cant understand this paradox. There are lot of WML-educated UMC creators here who spending years on creating their stuff and there are no people who would do elementary work 3-4 times in a year to support some mainline campaigns? Either something wrong with mainline campaigns or with project volunteer managment.

Make some damned simple trick, for example someone have an UMC campaign that good enough to be mainlined. Then demand from the candidate that he should maintain mainline campaigns for a year before his campaign will go to mainline, thats all. So the author should perform services for the project for a long time firstly to assure that he is trustful and will not disappear suddenly.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on April 6th, 2016, 8:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Paulomat4
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Paulomat4 » April 6th, 2016, 8:29 am

Panamaniac, to get more campaigns, just put 'Add-ons' button on the main menu, there you will see really huge number of user-made campagins.
Agreed! Try them out!
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SkyOne
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by SkyOne » April 6th, 2016, 8:43 am

panamaniac wrote:Hi guys, I went crazy on Wesnoth about 3 or 4 years ago. Love this game. Decided to come back and see if there are any new campaigns. Any way to see campaign release dates? I looked them over and about all of them look like ones I remember. I remember Under the Burning Sun being really cool.
Hi panamaniac,
the newest campaign is Dead Water which has been added to BfW version 1.10 (as stable version), released on Jan, 2012.
The next newest is Delfadors Memoirs, added on BfW 1.8, released Mar, 2010.

Meanwhile many User Made campaigns have been added on add-on server as Paulomat4 and Aldarisvet said.
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
Drake Campaign: Brave Wings/feedback thread, Naga Campaign: Return of the Monster, Saurian Campaign: Across the Ocean
Northern Forces - now on 1.12 server

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tekelili
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by tekelili » April 6th, 2016, 9:01 am

I've been around the forum long enough to tell you that discussions about why no new mainline campaigns have been added always end with this argument.
I have a very different opinion, even when I am agree with all problems you pointed about mainline campaigns. Imo solution would be not add more mainline campaigns, instead would be remove them all. This would solve lot of issues: Eases maintenance as you can change campaigns without change BfW version, eliminate frustated desires of become mainline, push players to discover inmediatly add on server (now it remains unkown for years as average), payers are not pushed to play bad stuff with false percived quality and BfW would stop stacking outdated gameplay that none is brave enougth to remove.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Aldarisvet
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 6th, 2016, 9:24 am

tekelili wrote:
I've been around the forum long enough to tell you that discussions about why no new mainline campaigns have been added always end with this argument.
I have a very different opinion, even when I am agree with all problems you pointed about mainline campaigns. Imo solution would be not add more mainline campaigns, instead would be remove them all. This would solve lot of issues: Eases maintenance as you can change campaigns without change BfW version, eliminate frustated desires of become mainline, push players to discover inmediatly add on server (now it remains unkown for years as average), payers are not pushed to play bad stuff with false percived quality and BfW would stop stacking outdated gameplay that none is brave enougth to remove.
Good idea generally.
But I would leave 'Heir to the Throne' as the only item at Campaign's menu, and next (second button by default) should be 'Get more campaigns'. So a player for sure would not miss it.
Purely democratic, and truly without 'frustated desires of become mainline'.

Hm. Probably I would leave 'Descent into Darkness' too. Actually only two this campaigns have radically higher rates at opinion pools I've seen.
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skeptical_troll
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by skeptical_troll » April 6th, 2016, 9:52 am

I feel we are going quite OT.
Anyway to answer the initial question: I agree with Paulomat4, go for UMC campaigns from the add-on server. Especially if you already played Wesnoth, you will find interesting variations on the basic game dynamic.
The problem is, there are tons of campaigns in the server, and no clear way of seeing which are good (whatever definition of 'good' applies) and finished.
If you are just starting with UMC, I suggest you look at these two pages, the guide to UMC content and the page of reviews by other players. I don't know how up to date are those pages, but surely there are good campaigns presented there.

PS: if you liked 'under the burning sun' then you should probably play 'invasion from the unknown' and possibly its sequel 'after the storm'. They are both in the style of UtBS and storywise connected to it, and I think they are universally recognized as very well-done campaigns. Be prepared however, it is significantly longer than a standard mainline campaign.

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Aldarisvet
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 6th, 2016, 10:16 am

We are going out of topic because a topicstarted touched a badly sore problem.
He is the one who was able to reach the forum with his question. Imagine how much was not able?
Avoiding problem will not solve the question.
I agree with tekelili that many mainline campaigns not worth being mainline. Just because they were created at the dawn of Wesnoth and they have good portraits that does not mean that they are good overally (if they good, there should be no problems with maintainers, this is logical). And about sceptical_troll mentioned about add-ons server that there is 'no clear way of seeing which are good' - look at this, from ideas FAQ.
____________________
32. The add-ons server should have a ranking system
Background: Some players feel that this would enable them to quickly identify which add-ons are the best, so that they do not have to waste time with add-ons they consider sub-par.
Result: The developers feel that this would be unfair as the system would be entirely subjective because people have different tastes, so the idea will not be implemented.
____________________

So this is a deliberate position. You cannot agrue that add-ons server is not good enough for users if you (not you, skeptical_troll, of course) deliberately made it so way. But I like the explanation, people have different tastes, but you will eat what we cooked for you in mainline according our tastes. This is just looks funny. Something more logical should be invented :lol:

P.S. I am not demanding anything - for me the whole Wesnoth as an open project is very intresting object for studying how such things works, it is a social experiment for me, and I just get fun when I see that something going wrong because of mismanagment or 'no one cares problem'.
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by nuorc » April 6th, 2016, 11:15 am

Hi panamaniac!

I agree you should check out some UMC. Maybe have a look at this recent topic to get a few specific ideas.

I don't agree we should remove all mainline campaigns. I think it's a big plus for the game that it comes with a set of campaigns which guide the novices into playing bfw. Of course we could have a debate/vote if maybe the one or other old campaign gets substituted by a UMC; I think a campaign would be eligible if a) it's considered to be good enough and if b) there's a maintainer. I'm absolutely against 'punishing' people by placing extra burdens on them.
Spoiler:
I also think that the add-ons button is placed quite prominently, so anybody interested in more content should be able to find it. Maybe we could add a description in the tip of the day* box on the title screen to get more people to check it out. But I think the add-ons manager is not beginner friendly and the content is just overwhelming; maybe we could at least include some visible link to a page somewhere, at least in the help, to help with orientation.


*Is that what we call it? :)
I have a cunning plan.

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skeptical_troll
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by skeptical_troll » April 6th, 2016, 11:23 am

My take on this is that probably it is not felt as a major problem by the developers. I think mainline camps are just fine for those who play Wesnoth for the first time. At that stage, you just need time to learn the basic mechanics, and the game concept is nice enough in itself to keep you hooked even if stories/dialogues and scenario designs are not perfect. I'd even advocate against complicated scenarios for mainline. Removing mainline campaigns from the game is plain nonsense to me, you'd make wesnoth an empty container which is just confusing for those who download the game for the first time (beside, it would make vain all the effort put in them).

We who write on the forum have played Wesnoth for a long time, and like panamaniac, to get back to the thread, are motivated enough to look for more and different things, others will just move on trying a different game, or play multiplayer.
I think people like us would look for information anyway, so the best thing for me would be to improve the guide/review page as we were discussing in another thread.

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Paulomat4
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by Paulomat4 » April 6th, 2016, 11:33 am

Maybe we could add a description in the tip of the day
That is actually a really good suggestion which should be easy enough to implementiert within 5mins.
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tekelili
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Re: New Campaigns?

Post by tekelili » April 6th, 2016, 12:00 pm

skeptical_troll wrote:My take on this is that probably it is not felt as a major problem by the developers. I think mainline camps are just fine for those who play Wesnoth for the first time. At that stage, you just need time to learn the basic mechanics, and the game concept is nice enough in itself to keep you hooked even if stories/dialogues and scenario designs are not perfect. I'd even advocate against complicated scenarios for mainline. Removing mainline campaigns from the game is plain nonsense to me, you'd make wesnoth an empty container which is just confusing for those who download the game for the first time (beside, it would make vain all the effort put in them).
BfW mainline campaigns are betraying BfW soul. What you call "empty container" is exactly what David created. I agree they are perfect stuff to get started in BfW mechanics, but my point is they are not labeled in such way. Claim that add on buttom is perfectly visible is just close eyes to reality, lot of players (like me) take years try use it. Imo mainline campaigns are directly responsable to mislead players about BfW gameplay power and many of them leave game without know real potential.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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