female trolls?

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
Bitron
Developer
Posts: 452
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 9:23 am
Location: Germany

Re: female trolls?

Post by Bitron »

I was thinking about implementing a female troll, but i'd like to stay canonical in my campaign. Who knows, maybe it will be good enough for mainline. :P
User avatar
nuorc
Forum Regular
Posts: 569
Joined: September 3rd, 2009, 2:25 pm
Location: Barag Gor

Re: female trolls?

Post by nuorc »

@Bitron: The bit of code I posted was 'canonical' (as in: taken from mainline BfW). Even if the red shirts names on the previous page didn't exactly help you, they didn't tell you otherwise...
I have a cunning plan.
User avatar
Gyra_Solune
Posts: 263
Joined: July 29th, 2015, 5:23 am

Re: female trolls?

Post by Gyra_Solune »

UMC does not entail that it is not to be made canon! That is silly to say considering most of the actual campaigns in the game started life as UMC. However, if you intend to introduce changes to the lore and setting in your campaign, this ought to be cleared up with the people in charge of maintaining the overall storyline of the game. If you introduce female trolls and the like, you will need to explain why exactly we haven't seen them before, what exactly this actually means for trolls as a race and society, and redefining their nature to be less like human-shaped stone golems made out of magic and more like actual biological creatures.

Drakes and orcs are an even tougher bet - they're officially described in mainline as being closely guarded and breeding in litters respectively. Those are both heavily martial and aggressive races whose society is defined by being as populous as they can and enforcing stability and prosperity through force of arms. Humans were much the same way for the vast majority of our 200,000 years of being and we had a similar divide between the sexes for somewhat logical reasons - as many people as possible needed to fight, and in this regard the males are more expendable and the females more valuable. A primitive species is going to survive fine if they have thousands of females kept safe even should all the males die in battle. If you have the reverse, then you are facing an enormous problem. In Wesnoth this even applies to the Loyalist humans who are much more developed by compare - explaining the same for female orcs and drakes on the field of battle is a much more imposing task.

So tl;dr unless your campaign has a very compelling and sound reason for those changes (and is, of course, deemed fitting and polished enough to be put into mainline), such proposals are unlikely to be made manifest outside fanworks.

Oh also there's plenty of odd things put about here and there in the coding - this doesn't entail what's meant to be made into the lore. After all the maintainer of Legend of Wesmere went through all the trouble to code in a level 3 Ogre into the campaign...problem is, ogres never appear in any of its scenarios and so for now the Great Ogre isn't anywhere in canon.
User avatar
Iris
Site Administrator
Posts: 6716
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: female trolls?

Post by Iris »

Chewan wrote:
@Gyra_Solune: UMC does not necessarily reflect what is meant to be canonical.
AFAIK, there is yet no approved guideline that constrains speculations on this matter.
data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/05_A_Subterranean_Struggle.cfg wrote:Zurg: While you fighting, another clan of dwarves sneak around and flank us. They tricksy like that. We must leave you and run back to defend women and little trolls. Dwarves never give up, many trolls die today, very hard fighting. But dwarves make mistake, you stronger than dwarf or troll thought. You trolls’ secret weapon.

Troll Leader: You invade our tunnels, you slaughter our women and children, by Griknagh we will make you pay!
data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/07b_Talking_with_Trolls.cfg wrote:Great Leader Darmog: On behalf of all trolls, Darmog thank you for great victory over the dwarves. You have helped drive back the nasty dwarves and given us time to strengthen our defenses. Us trolls not always enemies of dwarves. Until recently we not have much contact with small people. But dwarves invade our tunnels, defile our holy places and kill our women and young. Dwarf not care about anything except gold and pretty gems. The shamans say that the spirits of our kin cry out for vengeance and Darmog will not rest until every dwarf is dead!
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm (now available for Wesnoth 1.14.x and 1.15.4+).
User avatar
Bitron
Developer
Posts: 452
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 9:23 am
Location: Germany

Re: female trolls?

Post by Bitron »

Well, that's interesting. :hmm:
Chewan
Posts: 135
Joined: December 19th, 2013, 1:40 am

Re: female trolls?

Post by Chewan »

Oops! Interesting, indeed.
Thank you, shadowm, this is the proof that the right to have a mixed-gender society has long been conceded to trolls
(and that we should play mainline more often – I, at least).
There is no explicit mention of it in their description, I assume they are made of some flexible type of rock,
fact is: trolls have women, no need to produce buds to be blessed with children whelps.

I'd say the same is true for orcs and drakes.
Being martial and aggressive races does not exclude the existence of females (nor that they were unable to be caring parents), as Gyra_Solune said before: thousands of them might be kept in safe places (not yet explored by campaign writers). In the same way as not all mothers, wifes, daughters... of Loyalist humans hurl themselves into battle, they'd stay backstage, but I would have no trouble in accepting the mission to defeat an orcish Warlady. ;)
User avatar
Gyra_Solune
Posts: 263
Joined: July 29th, 2015, 5:23 am

Re: female trolls?

Post by Gyra_Solune »

...well that's what I get for not having played all the way through UtBS hahaha

I kind of figured /something/ like that would be in UtBS because it's easily the most...obviously adapted from a UMC of all of them. Most campaigns have a tendency to be a little conservative with what they establish and in comes UtBS all 'actually, in Wesnoth an apocalypse happens that turns everything into an 80s punk action anime OVA and also there are now aliens and demons and demigods' XD

Well that settles the case and makes me look like a doofus lol.

I am not saying to not do these things! Do as you wish, just know the context most of the story is told with and you will find greater success with your cool idea you want to make a reality! The established world of the game tends to eschew the higher fantasy in favor of a slightly more historical approach after all. So just make sure when you have an unusual thing happen, that you explain it in the narrative and make it happen for more realized reasons beyond 'it'd be cool if it did'!
User avatar
Dixie
Posts: 1757
Joined: February 10th, 2010, 1:06 am
Location: $x1,$y1

Re: female trolls?

Post by Dixie »

The next question ought to be "how are troll females portrayed?" though. Because other races have females and it's not necessarily readily obvious or apparent. I'm thinking about saurians, for instances: they have females, but they are otherwise pretty much like the males as far as looks are concerned. Indeed, why would lizards have mammalian sexy parts? Female saurians don't have breasts, etc. I'm willing to bet the same applies for Drakes. So what's up with trolls? Will humanoid living-rock creatures have breasts? Really? Also, how do they behave socially and everything, what are their characteristics, roles, etc. It's a potentially very interesting and very delicate subject to dive into.
Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny - Frank Zappa
Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth
Chewan
Posts: 135
Joined: December 19th, 2013, 1:40 am

Re: female trolls?

Post by Chewan »

@ Dixie: saurian females are pretty much like the males
Why not? They differ only in color from each other. And they should be egg laying – just as drakes and dragons.

Troll moms feed their whelps with crushed stones, gravel and mushrooms – very nourishing – occasionally flavored with a mashed dwarf.

Orc women, however, are breastfeeding, known to be very sexy (in the eyes of orc men), but since they wear leather armors the difference between the genders is hardly perceptible and therefore will worry only few human men.

Breast issue settled too. ;)
User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4960
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: female trolls?

Post by Dugi »

Chewan wrote:Orc women, however, are breastfeeding, known to be very sexy (in the eyes of orc men), but since they wear leather armors the difference between the genders is hardly perceptible and therefore will worry only few human men.
I think this can have a more natural explanation.

Have you noticed any female animal having breasts like humans (mostly made form fat)? Female dogs (thanks word filter) have just larger nipples, same for cats, mice, apes, cows do have massive milk glands but there's no fat that makes the shape. Only humans have women with such body part, it's not something typical for mammals.

There is no certain explanation why humans have this peculiarity. The most plausible one is that it might prevent babies from crushing their noses against ribs, as most mammal species have their mouth placed forwards from their face while humans have their nose elongated forwards and their mouth behind.
As we all know, orcs' faces have their mouths positioned like apes and most animals, behind their nose and other facial parts. Thus, according to the explanation, orcish females need no breasts at all. Trolls have also very small noses and they are so hard that no trollish bodily tissue can soften to contact, so they might not have breasts either.
User avatar
Bitron
Developer
Posts: 452
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 9:23 am
Location: Germany

Re: female trolls?

Post by Bitron »

Dugi wrote:Only humans have women with such body part, it's not something typical for mammals
I can imagine that Men are to blame for that. Could it be possible the shape have developed like that, cause Men always liked to touch them since the beginning?

I don't think that for dogs, or cows, breasts also have an erotical function. They are probably more functional.

However, if ocrish females are somehow attraktive to the males, there is a chance that it's quite like with human breaths.
Chewan
Posts: 135
Joined: December 19th, 2013, 1:40 am

Re: female trolls?

Post by Chewan »

@ Dugi: Have you noticed...
Yeah, there are differences between humans and animals, the equipment of some male beast compared to men is equally disturbing. ;)
I share the idea that from the time when human apes no longer crawled on all fours, the big, red buttocks of females no longer were the ideal choice to pick up males, something at eye level would serve better as a mood booster. Mother nature opted for prominent mammary glands to pump males up.
@ Bitron: there is a chance that...
Not all cultures make a fetish of the feeding tools, or take a different view as to the attractiveness of their seize – so much for the charm of ocrish females to human men. ;)

Anyway, BfW artists are scarce and swamped with work, strong visible distinction between the genders would only hinder the rising of female members of other races.
User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4960
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: female trolls?

Post by Dugi »

Bitron wrote:Could it be possible the shape have developed like that, cause Men always liked to touch them since the beginning?
Well, the divine hand of evolution is clearly visible here. Let's say that they were men who liked women's body parts and men who did not. Those who did had a lot of children and and those who didn't had little children. We are descendants of those who had many children, so in our species, men like women's body parts. In particular the body parts that men lack. If women had beards and men didn't, men would certainly find beards sexy because those who wouldn't would have died out.
Anyway, trolls like stones and orcs like pillage and murder, so according to your approach, their women would not develop a chest shape like humans. Troll women would evolve sapphires on their skin and orcish women would evolve a great skill in pillage and murder.
Chewan wrote:red buttocks of females no longer were the ideal choice to pick up males, something at eye level would serve better as a mood booster
Now this is an explanation.
I have seen also an explanation that humans wore clothes and hid marks that uniquely identified their gender, so they evolved something visible even if one wears clothes. Yours is funnier. Maybe you just answered an unresolved question in evolutionary anthropology.
Chewan wrote:Not all cultures make a fetish of the feeding tools, or take a different view as to the attractiveness of their seize
There was some scientific study that found that poor men like women with bigger breast size than more wealthy men. This might not be just culture, this can be completely individual.
Chewan
Posts: 135
Joined: December 19th, 2013, 1:40 am

Re: female trolls?

Post by Chewan »

Back to the topic...
Looking at the current troll portraits, the loincloths indicate already that there is something that must be safeguarded (usually related to the way of propagation)... I can't imagine why rock creatures would need a tunic (troll-hero 2), or female trolls working on a weaving frame manufacturing the necessary garment fabrics, but there is much to suggest that some shamans could be females:
trolls.png
The necklace/ear-pendants of fallen out teeth, the ornamental belt, the purse, the toupee (rather lichens than hair)...
The description highlights that they are weaker, an affix would clarify the subject and explain their participation in battles:
Troll Shamans are the mystical leaders of the trolls – most often their females have a gift for supernatural activity. Though not as strong or tough as other trolls, their true power lies in their fire magic, which they use to blast enemies with gouts of flame.
An artist might work out the pecs a little more (similar to the first troll), but a female troll being able to land effective fist punches can be taken for granted.

The sprites would do, though those for range attacks actually prove shamans stronger than stated – at any rate very well nourished:
shaman.png
:hmm: To me, it looks relatively easy to introduce troll ladies without this entailing too much artistic effort...
User avatar
johndh
Posts: 591
Joined: June 6th, 2010, 4:03 am
Location: Music City

Re: female trolls?

Post by johndh »

BfW is about battles, just like the name says, so of course we don't see many females of most races. I think elves have the most female representation, and presumably their females are relegated to archery and spellcasting not because of any physical weakness (archers have more use for strength than swordsmen do) but rather to keep them out of harm's way.

It appears that some older troll portraits included nipples, which would indicate that they are mammals, but the newer portraits do not, so that seems like a retcon. Currently, I don't think there's any established canon about how they reproduce, other than it must require both males and females and that they don't start out fully grown. This means they don't emerge full-sized out of the rock or anything like that, but their reproduction may still be supernatural. It could be that the female produces a special "stone" and the male breathes life into it, causing it to become a baby troll (like a more magical version of how frogs fertilize eggs).

Regarding troll shamans being female, I think we could come up with something more creative than that old cliche. We already have the elven shamans and mermaid priestesses. Human mages are 50:50, and I recall someone mentioning that saurian mages are male while skirmishers are female, which would make them the only race to buck the trend if it is indeed canon.
It's spelled "definitely", not "definately". "Defiantly" is a different word entirely.
Post Reply