Discovery of Wesnoth

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kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » September 5th, 2014, 5:58 pm

Few more thought:
- In preferences, the hotkey's and path's buttons are welcome.
- The magnifying glass also, I've just discovered zoom in/out, but it's easiest this way!
- In 1.10.7, when the window was behind, the first click on it (everywhere) wasn't take into account but only brings the window in front. Now it makes the action (close pop up or advance in the storyline).
- Before using this version, I was trying to link a label to a unit, I've tried all possible combinations, but can't get something else than a label on the map! All I want is a simple way to tag units as I want and be able to see that on the map, especially loyal. Is the flat crown is what I was looking for? And the star ellipse is for "keep alive or lose"?

Time to play The South Guard now.

Woowww! Really nice idea to add wood behind the map. Markers are far better than the previous one. And the map design ... it's really beautifull and awesome!
Ellipse and the highlighted border of hex (how do you call that?) modification is also a good idea. Friend, target, target ... it's so nice!

Hooo, we can't undo after recruitment now. If I remember well it was possible in 1.10.7 and talk about that somewhere even I don't use it's possibility. I find it's a good idea to deny that.

BAM. Deoran is dead in turn 5 and 7! I try to play against the design and fight south but I'm not good enought to do that for now!
BTW if someone can give me a good reason to recruit Peasant?

Ok, I'm against save/reload/restart, I don't find that interesting for many good reasons.
Thinking back to all the errors I've spotted by myself, it's ok, I'll restart on beginner level.

I'll follow the same process, here and in review posts. Somehow it will be lighter this time, at least I hope, because I'll only point out big problems.

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James_The_Invisible
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by James_The_Invisible » September 5th, 2014, 6:34 pm

BTW if someone can give me a good reason to recruit Peasant?
I would recruit them only if I had no other unit to recruit (which is very rare) or did not have enough gold to recruit a better unit. But once you move any unit to the river fort like you were suggested, you will be able to recruit also spearman and bowman.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » September 6th, 2014, 12:03 pm

Thank you James_The_Invisible.

The South Guard - 1. Born to the Banner.
Nothing special.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by beetlenaut » September 6th, 2014, 1:00 pm

You really need to be playing at a higher difficulty level. Beginner is clearly too easy for you, so you aren't going to learn anything new. I recommend Normal.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

kiss
Posts: 124
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » September 6th, 2014, 1:52 pm

You know I always follow your advices beetlenaut. Ok. Edit: Normal, you mean the most difficult?

I have to find a fair way to deal with failure then, you know I'm against save/reload. Restart the scenario until 2, the campaign at the third?

Let's try.

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max_torch
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by max_torch » September 6th, 2014, 3:32 pm

James_The_Invisible wrote:
BTW if someone can give me a good reason to recruit Peasant?
I would recruit them only if I had no other unit to recruit (which is very rare) or did not have enough gold to recruit a better unit. But once you move any unit to the river fort like you were suggested, you will be able to recruit also spearman and bowman.
Actually the nice thing about peasants is that they take little xp to level, so you can use to your advantage the fact that units do a full heal when they level up. Also they are cheap to buy and they cost no upkeep. They are useful for finishing off enemies that have very few hp..
Personally i did recruit some peasants in The South Guard

Also as to what you said about not being able to undo after recruiting, even in the older versions you cannot undo that, because of the two randomized traits that the units receive.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » September 6th, 2014, 7:08 pm

max_torch wrote: Also as to what you said about not being able to undo after recruiting, even in the older versions you cannot undo that, because of the two randomized traits that the units receive.
Really? I was sure to write something about that funny way to cheat! Sometime I'm lost with all I discover, I'm sorry.
max_torch wrote: Actually the nice thing about peasants is that they take little xp to level, so you can use to your advantage the fact that units do a full heal when they level up. Also they are cheap to buy and they cost no upkeep. They are useful for finishing off enemies that have very few hp..
Personally i did recruit some peasants in The South Guard
I've tried to evaluate that. After 8 turns they become free. But they need 3 kill to advance ... and I don't find how to justify that?
To stay simple: enough gold, 30 turn and 3 kill, else I'm lost! We have Peasant against Bowman or Spearman.
Peasant saves 22 gold. Bow or Spear cost 14+30=44. After that, I'm lost.

But the worst comes from the next scenario.
I'm not sure 22 and 44 are good. It should be 40%, only +9 or -18?
What would we recall for 20 gold?

Really, I can't say, I can't go deeper but I have the feeling it's a wrong choice to give them any kill.

Of course, loyal and no choice are obvious.
Even take villages to free other unit for fight isn't that clear for me.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by beetlenaut » September 6th, 2014, 7:11 pm

kiss wrote:Normal, you mean the most difficult?
For The South Guard, yes. For other campaigns Normal is in the middle or even the bottom.
kiss wrote:I have to find a fair way to deal with failure then, you know I'm against save/reload. Restart the scenario until 2, the campaign at the third?
No, no. If you fail the scenario, restart it at the first turn, no matter how many times it takes. I sometimes have to try a scenario four, five, or even ten or fifteen times. The top players do that too. You may also need to replay a previous scenario to get more gold or level up some different units, so you can go back any number of scenarios: You don't necessarily have to go all the way back to the beginning.

You can make up your own rules of course, but these are the ones that seem to be pretty standard.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

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max_torch
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by max_torch » September 7th, 2014, 2:27 am

kiss wrote: What would we recall for 20 gold?
What I have to say to that is that you're not even supposed to recall everyone from the previous scenarios... so having one or two peasants that are meant to just be cheap and you have no plans of recalling in the future helps.. this took me a while to realize and learn in the forums.. there is an opinion in the forums which i share which is that having excess gold is more important than having levelled troops when playing campaigns in order to consistently get through the scenarios esp on higher difficulties (there are exceptions). It is mainly because of the upkeep spent in the time taken for your recalled units to reach the opponent. I like to have a low recall/recruit ratio in each scenario, the recalled unit softens up the enemies and the recruited ones make the killing blow.

Also when deciding to give kills to a unit , you can maximize their efficiency by letting them kill an enemy whose life is more or less close to or equal to the amount of damage that your unit will dish out. Example:

Situation 1: You have two level 3 units that have 10-5 damage that costs 3 upkeep per turn, and it takes 5 turns to reach two enemies who have 4hp and 30 hp respectively.
After 5 turns to reach the enemy you have spent (3*5*2 = 30 gold) then two of them kill the enemies in one attack.

Situation 2: You have a peasant that has no upkeep and a level 3 unit that has 10-5 damage that costs 3 upkeep per turn, and it takes 5 turns to reach two enemies who have 4hp and 30 hp respectively. After 5 turns to reach the enemy you have spent (3*5 = 15 gold) then the peasant attacks the unit that has 4 hp killing it in one blow and the other strong unit you have kills the enemy with 30 hp also in one blow.

As you can see in both situations the same result of killing two enemies in one blow is achieved but in the second situation you spent 50% less gold. This is also what people are talking about in the forum when they say that drakes have too much force concentrated in one unit.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » September 7th, 2014, 11:16 am

You've forgot I'm still a beginner. Ok, perhaps level 1/2 or 1, but still so far from level 10!
For example right now. I'm on trait! Which one for which unit, keep this one or try to get a better one? Sometime I'm not able to find which units I need. Etc, etc, ...

@ beetlenaut
Difficult to explain, but, we'll lose all feedback if I do that. And, well I dislike doing it in my own side without any exchange.

Perhaps it's time to try something else and follow your advice?
BTW I won't discover so much replaying TSG but something more difficult, and it is not that important to explain it in the review thread?
Perhaps it's time to work on skills with the help of all of you, newcomer and advanced players?

What about a new thread? Kind of lessons series?

@max_torch
Until now, I've played as beginner with enought gold.

What's behind is high level strategy. I'm not sure to be able to use that, it needs the perfect play the campaing designer expect.
For me, it's a far away concept: save gold to be able to recall when needed ... for the final battle. This means recruit, advance and keep in the recall list.
I'm still not able to play this way. I'll have to raise my fighting skill first.

It also changes the outcome in Born to the Banner. I've trapped myself with that. Recruiting Peasants gives me time to be able to fight on the south bank. It was an illusion, I've lost.
Wait on the north bank, then Peasant (used to take villages) seems useless.
Without Peasants, units take villages and it's not that clear to set up a fight on the south bank.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » September 7th, 2014, 5:33 pm

Ok, half a day spent to think about that. I agree, I'll follow the hard path.
This thread will hibernate for some time and wake up when I'll play an unkown scenario again, perhaps.

As I don't want to do it alone, I'll need help, from all of you.

@beetlenaut thank you for the kick off.
@max_torch I'll have to learn what you are talking about.
@all thank you for your help and support.

kiss
Posts: 124
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » October 13th, 2014, 12:45 pm

Back to this thread.
Heir to the Throne - Princess of Wesnoth

I've discovered the storyline link in the wiki, it helped to remind me where I am in the story.

It's not really new for me and I've had a few replay to experiment.
One time with too much chaotic I wasn't able to fight during daylight!
And again the wrong feeling it is possible to fight around the river. It was this way I've lost the first time and a disaster again.
Still some deadly errors because of wrong calculation. Why don't I use Ctrl+b more?

Edit to add part 9
Heir to the Throne - Valley of Death
I don't know what to think about this one?
I found and interesting way to stay away from the main "wait and die" trap, but at an heavy gold cost. There should be something hidden I'm still unable to understand.
Is there a kind of lesson in each scenario? "Hey guy, can you please stop to kill anything anytime ..." for this one!

About 1.11.16.
Are we supposed to have always the same ingame help or not?
Because from the main screen (HELP button inside the hint window), terrain detail doesn't show up, nor from the main menu, nor in the unit's description.
From the ingame screen (Menu-Help or Terrain Description or Unit description), terrain description is shown.

Edit to add part 10
Heir to the Throne - Gryphon Mountain
No comment!

Edit to add part 11
Heir to the Throne - Ford of Abez
Nothing special about this one.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » October 16th, 2014, 11:44 am

I've forgotten. "Valley of Death" file names is weird and truncated : HttT-The_Valley_of_Death_—_..._replay.gz

1.11.16 provides an easy zoom in/out tool. I use it. In HttT campaign we have to fight on wide maps, and I've started to use zoom out to analyse the map and during the early turns. Northern Winter is the widest map I've seen so far.
That wide map and zoom in/out scale effect led me to a wrong analysis and I've discovered the rhythm or whatever you may named that.

On a small map it is common to see all the map.
AI recruits and sends one or two waves, you see all units and can manage your own troop accordingly. Usually, the first wave captures villages, then, joined the next wave and attack. At this point you're often in a neutral state and AI can't send more than one or two unit.
This is a well known pattern and we learn how to deal with it.

Northern Winter map emphasis that and it is what lure me.
As usual, first and second wave, but there is many villages that you don't have any pack. Zoom in or out still gives you the feeling to be safe.
With the new income, AI can send one or two other waves, I haven't been careful enough about it. Those are sent straight towards you, but still not any pack. And suddenly you're facing pack coming from nowhere!
This is why I let it go when it seems obvious I was doomed!

Rhythm is the first idea I've had.
For a small map it could be: BOUM, TCHII, boum, tchii, TAK, BAM, tak, boum, tchii, BAM, tak, tak, ...
And for a wide map: BOUM, TCHII, BOUM, TCHII, boum, tchii, boum, tchii, tak, tak, BAM, BAM, BAM, BOUM, TCHII, ...
Of course each sound is an action: FULL KEEP, VILLAGES, half keep, villages, PACK, ATTACK, reinforcement, ...

I don't know if I explain it well, but I think it's important to take care of such timing. And when you hear BOUM, TCHII, BOUM, TCHII, BOUM, TCHII, BOUM, TCHII, BOUM, TCHII, ... run away!

I wasn't prepared and let myself impressed. Resign was too early and I lose some units.

Heir to the Throne - Northern Winter

Edit to add part 13
A great part of fun is to read comments afterward. I don't know how anyone proceed, but, as I've chosen no information before ... I read when it's over. In any case it can't spoil me ... I'll never play this one the same way!

What I found interesting in that one is the fact that I've played it a way that seems to be common. But it wasn't what I've had planned from start!
I've suspected some trick, and while looking at the map I've made a wrong expectation. Usually I don't take care of castle tile name. But in this one, I've looked at all, they're named "castle" or "ruined castle". Of course this isn't clear, but it worth a try.
Whatever, I've should escape. Being able to recall/recruit from such a central spot would be nice for me, without effect against those who were decided to run from start, and a countertrick for those who had spent 2 or 3 turn to build an army in the sarting keep. It can be possible and it doesn't seems to be over powerfull, but I'm far from being a scenario designer.
I was wrong, but ... no other choice than running like everyone!
Also, that new unit I was so happy to get because I can recruit them ... seems to be already here, in my recall list! I've don't understood that.

Heir to the Throne - Dwarven Doors

Edit to add part 15

Heir to the Throne - The Lost General

Nothing special about this one, a great scenario when played for the first time

Edit to add part 16
Heir to the Throne - Hasty Alliance

Can be a nightmare without a small idea of how to hold a position and push back opponents in a small space!
Good spot to learn that.

kiss
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Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » November 12th, 2014, 1:38 pm

Again a long break but I was involved in MP campaign these last days.

A few words about that.
By opposition to single player, multiplayer campaign introduce another dimension far deeper the simple fact that not being alone against the game.
Despite the chat messaging system it is easy to focus too much on what you are doing and forget you are not alone and it is nearly what was my first try: some words at the beginning, some at the end ...
With more experience, communication comes as an handy feature and reveal the multiplayer dimension. Thinking what you have to do as a team member is really interesting.
I really encourage anyone to try. It opens a wide new world.

Back to Heir to the Throne - Scepter of Fire
With lessons from the previous scenario this one is easy.
I'm against some past reviews about this random map. I found challenging not to know what the map will look like. Especially in case of many play.
Also, technically I found that it is a part of Wesnoth interest for.

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