Discovery of Wesnoth

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 19th, 2014, 4:01 pm

Hello all

On my "software manager" Battle for Wesnoth is the first game and this is the only reason why I tried !

As I always do, I started the tutorial to know what it looked right after installation.
Then I read online manual, watched few multiplayer fight and read quickly a lot of forum thread's in all sections. After a few days, I've decided to start a campaign, searched the suitable one, and found it should be : A Tale of Too Brothers.
During my discovery of the forum, I've often read about game's difficulty. Also, I read the walkthrough and some tips, because I was sure it would be a disaster without that, and I've started the campaign on easy mode.
This has been a disaster as predicted, but not the way I thought : at the end, I was about to stop !

I do not played anymore ... but ... rethought about all I had discovered, after all, how BfW could be a one test game only with such a deep ?
So, I've read again the manual, reviewed the forum with much more attention, looked at more multiplayer games and it became clear I had to do an other test.

Of course I could do that from my side without disturbing anyone here, but from my previous experiences, I know that each time I really enter in a game, something push me to participate after some time.
I also read many times that players restart again and again the same campaign/scenario in order to find out the way to pass through.

The main idea of this thread was born.
Restart to restart each step, why not do it all in a natural order, each campaign in easy mode, then harder and harder until the end, with comments on my progression ?
I discussed with developers on IRC and they have marked a great interest for the idea. After all we all know, that most of the time, we start to interact with the community when the first steps are far away behind and remember the early time is difficult, this is one more reason to write down all that.

I still don't know how deep I will go, neither the best way to present it, but let things fall into place by itself.

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3987
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by Velensk » July 19th, 2014, 4:24 pm

I'm glad that you're the sort to do research and to allow a game more than one test.

I cannot say that I'd read the thread and follow your progress through all the mainline campaigns (that would take awhile) but what I can say is that if you're having trouble you can post replays of your attempts in the stratagy forum and someone there should be able to give you advice.

Wesnoth's learning curve is pretty front loaded but it's also deep so you do have to learn a lot of information and develop a lot of skills right at the start but even after you get past that hump there'll still be plenty of development over a long enjoyable time, but you'll probably find it much less frustrating once you have the basics down.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 19th, 2014, 8:45 pm

@Velensk
BfW should thank you, it is because I've read your posts and some from other that i'm still here!

I've done the tutorial again and guess what? I've lost, I was too slow !

I don't really know where this comes from, because the first time , it seemed straightforward.
The only answers I have found, is that now I have much more knowledge on BfW, whereas my first try was mostly usage of my experiences from all other games. This means a rush over villages and an oversized army without any consideration for BfW's specific other rules.
An other possibility is that this time I've followed what the elfish said during the second part, and when it stopped, I've done nothing more !

To end with the tutorial, it realy does his job.

This led me to think that something had gone wrong with my first campaign attempt, luck perhaps or whatever else, but I shouldn't have an easy win.

This seems easier for me now, I can start the campaigns from the beginning, write an overall thought here and a detailled one in each forum part's.
This way no spoiler here and an easier organisation.

I'll follow the order from now, and the first one is the original one: HttB.

Let's see if I'll find what i'm expecting?
The storyline and especially the introduction should guide me, I don't know how, but I should have hints.
I shouldn't have to use the walkthrough and no overwhelming situations.

I'll play without reload on the easiest mode for now. Starting again with tutorial ... i lost on second round this time!
It will be tight because i'm not sure I'm understanding BfW!

User avatar
firefox
Posts: 120
Joined: September 7th, 2009, 6:26 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by firefox » July 21st, 2014, 7:01 am

It will be tight because i'm not sure I'm understanding BfW!
When I played the tutorial for the first time I lost many times, because I used an extensive "attack and retreat" pattern
without any thougt about unit formation. :whistle:
Then I decided to start with "Heir to the Throne" because it has Delfador in it.
But I got stuck at "Siege of Elensefar" where I had to defeat 2 Enemies on a map with mostly flat and open terrain.

So I started a different Campaign:
:eng: "The South Guard" was described as a Campaign designed for beginners and at easy difficulty setting it gives you hints and tipps like the ones you got in the Tutorial.
This was very helpful to me as it explained basic strategies and the usage of every new introduced unit type.

I recommed you to play "The South Guard" first. ;) It is easier to play than "Heir to the Throne".
Only the last 2 scenarios are "difficult" and require all your strategic knowledge, while "Heit to the Throne" suddenly becomes very tricky when Konrad meets his rival. (which happens right after "Siege of Elensefar")
may the source be with you
=(^.^)= nyan~

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 21st, 2014, 11:39 am

I've played the tutorial again (without awaiting the elf's advices this time) and I think this part is over for me now.

@firefox
Thank you for the advice.
I forgot to ask about the best order for campaigns. Perhaps I can find this somewhere? Found it : BeginnerCampaigns
Maybe this: tutorial, The South Guard (units and basics as you say), An Orcish Incursion (strategy) and A Tale Of Two Brothers (no help)?
Does the wiki needs an update about this?

An other change in my planning!
I've spent the last days turning arround with all the informations I have before the first move! And I do not found an easy way to present it.
Stories of the campaign and scenario, status (allies, ennemies, gold, villages, slots, ...), the map (number of turn needed to reach each part, ground types, ...), objective, ...

Mixed, this should give a line to follow.
I'll try with TSG.

Chewan
Posts: 135
Joined: December 19th, 2013, 1:40 am

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by Chewan » July 21st, 2014, 2:29 pm

"A good campaign to start with is the Heir to The Throne.
It is not too difficult on easy, but gets challenging later on.
"
@kiss: Does the wiki need an update about this?
I would say YES.
IMO, HttT is everything but "Novice level"!
At the time, the tutorial was not enough to prepare me even for the first scenario:
I had to start all over again and again. Over time I gathered more experience,
but I still consider this campaign very challenging (what may be a reason why it is the most played one).
I wonder if the recommended order for beginners should be shown at the end of the tutorial:
- The South Guard
- An Orcish Incursion (which I found a little easier than TSG)
- A Tale of Two Brothers
- Heir to the Throne (which rolls out the historical backgrounds of almost everything).

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 22nd, 2014, 12:53 pm

The South Guard - 1. Born to the Banner

Notes from the play:
Huuu, two victory objectives? Meeting one of the defeat list and game is over! Is it the same for victory?
On the game screen, I do not noticed current hex position nor defense and movement before this .
AI comes close and do not attack?
XP raised without kill? I do not remember I've read that somewhere.
Early bonus 15/turn, I do not see that before the result panel.

I think I do the job here.
Perhaps some may link some fights to luck, but each time, 3 if I remember well, I think I had the good estimation and it worth the try.

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2390
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by beetlenaut » July 22nd, 2014, 10:26 pm

kiss wrote:Huuu, two victory objectives? Meeting one of the defeat list and game is over! Is it the same for victory?
Usually, yes. But it's the scenario author's decision, and in this case, no. And if you chick, you will find that the first objective disappears when it is met.
kiss wrote:AI comes close and do not attack?
If your army is large or powerful, the AI might decide not to attack. It depends how aggressively it is programmed to play.
kiss wrote:XP raised without kill? I do not remember I've read that somewhere.
For every fight without a kill, units get XP equal to the level of the unit they fought. (Which means nothing for fighting level-0 units.)
kiss wrote:Early bonus 15/turn, I do not see that before the result panel.
It is always villages+2. (The author could change it, but I've never seen that.)
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 25th, 2014, 7:15 pm

@beetlenaut Thank you for the explanations. I read "check", and yes I do it.

I don't know how many does this kind of experimentation, but it's more difficult than I've thought!
For now, I'm still balanced with going deeper with details or be lighter. It takes a lot of time to write ideas and sort out which one can be interesting or pointless.
For example, you remember the units you have, you know where you come from and what you've done before, the storyline introduce you the new part and you see the battle ground. In a short time a plan came into your mind, and you should explain that.

I start to understand some concepts like "no attack in some situations" as spotted above. In a way, with a strong unit it can be better to wait and be able to defend against 6 attacks with full HP.
I'll don't talk about waiting for a suitable part of the day, I still do not take enough care about that for now.
Stay flexible as objectives changes and, most important, battle never goes the way you expect!

The South Guard - 2. Proven by the Sword
Notes from the play
in the help the outlaw can move in shallow water by a 2 moves cost. Here it seems the outlaw (Urza Nalmath) can't?

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2390
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by beetlenaut » July 25th, 2014, 7:39 pm

Yes, I meant "check".
kiss wrote:in the help the outlaw can move in shallow water by a 2 moves cost. Here it seems the outlaw (Urza Nalmath) can't?
Scenario authors commonly change the stats of AI units to get the AI to behave the way they want. The author probably didn't want Urza Nalmath to enter the water because his defense is too low there. His solution was to raise the movement costs of water to 99.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 26th, 2014, 3:28 pm

Small typo in forum feedback title (Desparate).

The South Guard - 3. A Desparate Errand
Discovering a lot of new units is interesting. The way I play for now doesn't let me time to learn how to use each, but i'll have time to do that later. In fact, it is not a real choice, I stay focused on winning and for now, dealing with map and moves is already enough.

Ho, I discover statistics table. I'll have to look it during the next scenario to understand it better.

Edit to add part 4

The level in unit's title in the help?
See all possible moves on the map (ZOC cuts some)?
Does the last ground type after a move changes something in the way AI spot unit? It's on 7th turn with Ethieliel, I have choice between dirt and forest, I choose dirt and it seems AI have seen me, AI moves a unit to south.

And: Hooo, amazing sun! Rise from the right side ... hehehe.

The South Guard - 4. Vale of Tears

This part is really instructive, I must pull out all I understand to keep control (Turn 6). Discover TOC, mmmm, ZOC sorry, for the first time in situation.
I was careless during center and south battles. A lot of errors in these parts without too much loss, but I'm sure it could have been worse!

And, well, this is what i looked for!

Edit to add part 5

BfW 1.10.7 is shipped with Mint 17. This is not listed in wiki.

Thinking back to last scenario, as long as I take into account most of the informations I have, I do pretty well. But when the end is near, I tend to take less and less informations and then comes bad moves and wrong choices. Too hurry to finish?

The South Guard - 5. Choice in the Fog

Not having informations from the status table is what I expected with the fog. We find there number of ennemy leaders and nothing more. But when ennemies are discovered, still no informations?

I've had to restart a few times to understand fog of war.
If I understand well what I've found on the forum the problem I encounter is in relationship with vision feature introduced in the latest's version.
More precisely, I wanted to be sure there is nothing in the 1,1 hex. I use Ethieliel for this part of the map. And, I wasn't able to figure out what will be fog state after a move!
Experimenting with south moves, gives me a clue. The hex marked 3 becomes the fog limit if I do the move on the hex marked 1. But changing the hex marked 3 also change the hex marked 1!
I was looking for is something showing where are the hex marked 3 when I point mouse over the hex marked 1.
I don't know if this a good idea or not and I'll survive with some wasted moves.
Now that scenario is over, it shouldn't have been that much usefull, but in tricky maps it can help a lot.

I do no feel confortable all along this scenario. Chose units properly and use them in the right order is still difficult, from time to time I still lose focus on that. The loss of bowman at the end, for example, can be prevented.

Whatever it is still quite easy, but I start to imagine what I have to handle on difficult's mode.

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 29th, 2014, 3:03 pm

The South Guard - 6a. Tidings Good and Ill

Really a bad play. I don't know why I do not take more time. I must play carefully.

This is the most important lesson from these 3 last plays, I'm not able to have good result when I do not take time to analyse!

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 29th, 2014, 6:06 pm

After playing this one, I wonder how much I should trust on offered troups against ones that I can build from scratch?

The South Guard - 7a. Into the Depths

Mmmm, facing waisting moves in the caves makes me think about the ability to cast on allied unit. I do not searched on the forum and i'm sure it was already discussed, but who knows?

Is there a limitation in healing? Ethiliel and a shamann were close to an hurted unit and the shamann doesn't heal?
Even alone she doesn't heal. There is something I do not understand about that point.

Edit to add The South Guard - 8a. Return to Kerlath

The questions in the content review are not the same than the previous one's from that campaign.

TheCripple
Posts: 103
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 3:30 am

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by TheCripple » July 29th, 2014, 7:59 pm

kiss wrote:Is there a limitation in healing? Ethiliel and a shamann were close to an hurted unit and the shamann doesn't heal?
Even alone she doesn't heal. There is something I do not understand about that point.
Healing heals the 6 units adjacent to the healer; they do not heal themselves - it also heals either 4 or 8 damage, but doesn't heal poisoned units.

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss » July 29th, 2014, 8:50 pm

@TheCripple Thank you for the answer.
I mean shamann doesn't heal at all!
One unit with Ethiliel and that shamann adjacent and only healing form Ethieliel.
Shamann alone adjacent to an other unit and still no heal (It was poisoned but I cure it before).

The South Guard - 9a. Vengeance
Mmmm the questions reverts to the previous list?

And here is what I was afraid of: can someone, with the experience I have with the game can handle that? I mean at the first attempt!
Perhaps it's possible, but I really don't think so.

Be quite, I'll try again, and this time I'll listen: It seems easy at first sight, but ... and I'll come back.

Post Reply