How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
Maiklas3000
Posts: 532
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 10:43 am

How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Post by Maiklas3000 » June 13th, 2014, 4:11 pm

In the campaign scenario reviews, usually people rate the difficulty of the scenario on a scale from 1 to 10. I sometimes see reviewers say something like, "It was a 2/10. I only had to save-reload twice to beat it." In my universe, if you had to save-reload, it wasn't a "2". You are free to rate it how you want, but you are only going to confuse the scenario author with that kind of rating.

For what it's worth, here is how I rate the difficulty of scenarios:

10 - Impossible to win, or only likely with considerable luck and/or multiple save-reloads.
9.5 - Held me up for a long time - I thought it was impossible, but finally beat it, maybe with a save-reload.
9 - Very hard, probably lost a few times, may have required me to change strategy.
8 - Hard, may have lost once or twice, forced me to concentrate.
7 - Challenging, may have lost once, need to think to beat it.
6 - Mildly challenging, beat it the first time, but I see how I could have lost.
5 - Pretty easy, some strategy or tactics involved for victory.
4 - Easy, very little strategy, just need sound tactics to avoid defeat.
3 - Very easy, but defeat is possible if you are careless.
2 - Child's play, but you could lose if you actually tried.
1 - Story, literally impossible to lose.

User avatar
taptap
Posts: 980
Joined: October 6th, 2011, 5:42 pm

Re: How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Post by taptap » June 20th, 2014, 7:20 am

Wholeheartedly agree. However, when some campaign authors (for UMC at least) are under the impression it is ok to balance with a "modest amount of saveloading", it is hard to urge players to be consistent.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2391
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Post by beetlenaut » June 20th, 2014, 8:28 am

It might be a good idea to sticky this list or something similar in the campaign feedback threads.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Post by kiss » August 21st, 2014, 10:06 pm

I think this is a real problem for all of us!
And when I say that, I take into account all what you are working on, I mean you, the whole dev team. But I stay focused on difficulty.
I agree with most of what Maiklas3000 says but it doesn't make "all" the job like that ... at least for me. It is far most difficult than that.

Now, I'm in my desperate lone hole ... and you need some explanations, I'm sure that without that it wasn't fair. Read that. Now I can explain myself.

I don't know how but it should be neutral, else it's a self judgement and it's wrong. For example I'll never say 2, never!
A short way is to link all games with a server and grab all needed.

The easiest other way I can imagine is a kind of matrix : replay, reload, time spent, loss, kill, ... I don't know what values you need.
And extend that to all other informations ... scenario, fun ... staying simple as possible.

I know it's difficult.

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Post by kiss » August 24th, 2014, 10:23 am

Since my last post I've stayed stuck on this rating system question.
To understand well, I've searched for Maiklas3000's reviews and discover some high level ones (expert's campaigns played on hard mode). I've don't read too much to avoid self spoiling!
Nearly all give the starting gold amount with other few parameters: the number of turn to finish, units lost and killed, ...
Looking at the replay file to know if there is a way to get that easily, I've found all those statistics in the file. Then I hope you don't really need us to provide all those informations when the replay file is attached.
Saying that, perhaps here is the official ladder some asked for?
But you can't have : time spent, save/reload/restart, study of the map, starting strategy and it's modifications, ...
Maiklas3000 wrote:In the campaign scenario reviews, usually people rate the difficulty of the scenario on a scale from 1 to 10. I sometimes see reviewers say something like, "It was a 2/10. I only had to save-reload twice to beat it." In my universe, if you had to save-reload, it wasn't a "2". You are free to rate it how you want, but you are only going to confuse the scenario author with that kind of rating.
For me the link between how many save/reload and the difficulty scale from 5 to 10 is obvious. Then why don't ask for : how many time do you save/reload (and perhaps why)? and add one or two other questions to cover the lower part of the scale.

Let me try with an example. I give you that:
0 time played before, no help (walkthrough, forum, ...), beginner mode, 0 restart, 0 reload, 100 starting gold, time spent to study the map 90 mins, time spent to chose a starting strategy 15 mins, number of turns 10/16, game's time 15 mins, lost/killed/leveled units 0/2/0.

You should agree that from the player side it is straight forward to answer, from the dev team and author side it should be easy to judge and classify as well, won't you?

Here is my example, I answer 1.
But, yes, I see how I could have lost so it should be 6. And I always think and concentrate, so, an 8?

An other little annoying point is that the first post (the one with the list) isn't the same for all scenario. I can understand that for campaigns that are still under development, I can even understand a modification of the list when some points are settled or arise. But for main campaigns, shouldn't we have the same one?
Thus, the first post can be an explanation of what, why, when do a review with a link toward a blue print. Or better, more than one blue print because playing a scenario for the first time is always special, play on easy or hard isn't really the same, ...

I feel a little stupid to insist on this, but, I've spent so much time on it and any way to make the process easier will be welcome. To give you an idea, in time, it is something like 2/5 playing, analysing and reading, 3/5 trying to point out something interesting in a review. 3/5 is reducing as I discover less than in my early hours and I simplify.

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Post by Velensk » August 24th, 2014, 11:52 am

I would suggest that you simply view what you're doing as a favor you're doing for the developers than a log of your play or anything that requires a strict format. They're trying to get feedback, they want it to be useful.

So, telling them that every scenario has a '1' level of difficulty doesn't really help them much. The point of the exercise isn't to come up with some absolute rating for how difficult a scenario is but to tell them how much trouble you had with it. In this, it doesn't matter if you're an expert or a newbie because all they care about is what the experience was like for you. If you rate every scenario a 1 but have trouble with some (requires multiple tries or change of tactics) and no trouble with others (beat it on first try without too much strain) then that kind of removes the point of giving a number at all and you might as well just describe it.

All of the other things are there to give them extra info on related things. For example, you might find Clearwater Port to be impossible unless you leave on the first ship; does this mean that the scenario is too hard? Maybe, maybe not. What other information would help? Well, it'd help to know if you still have your loyal heavy infantry and white mages in your army and other units that make a solid defense. Nobody comes out of the last scenario with much gold so that doesn't matter too much. Then there is the matter of how skilled a player you are but as few are good judges of that we instead take a sampling of many people and trust that many of the people are relatively new and that others are experienced. Also, you can frequently figure this out by other clues.

Then there are other things unrelated to balance that are good to know. No matter how good/bad the player or hard/easy the scenario, each scenario is an experience and the developer is trying to craft that experience to be enjoyable (or to fit some other agenda). As long as your feedback helps explain what your experience was like it can be useful. Giving numbers can help and can be easy to analyze on mass but only if the numbers have some kind of meaning. Numbers get meaning from being diverse from, and relative to, each other. So slapping down that each scenario had a difficulty of 1 an enjoyment of 7 or whatever tells a developer nothing about the individual challenge and impression each scenario was to you.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

kiss
Posts: 124
Joined: July 9th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Re: How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Post by kiss » August 24th, 2014, 2:45 pm

I understand much more than what you write, should I record kiss007!
Thank you for that, really. But I'm afraid I'll still need more help, I'm only 17.

I hope I understand well your comments. I'll drop the list, I don't feel comfortable with it anyway, and build mine.

Will you agree to comment on my main thread for my coming few reviews?
Of course anyone else is welcome.

Post Reply