Do you save and reload? If so, why?

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Jabie
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Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Jabie » March 21st, 2012, 1:09 pm

This is going to be a contraversial subject and I know a number of readers will probably respond, "No, your just cheating yourself", but I think it's an important one to ask, as save-reloading may be symptomatic of indicating where BfW can be frustrating rather than fun. Therefore, do you save and reload? And if so, under what circumstances? For instance:

* The RNG mucks you about. e.g. 4 shots at 70% on an enemy that only needed one hit to die and now your mage is exposed cos your tank can't move into position.
* A variation on this theme is the Thunder gambit where several one shot big damage units fail to hit an enemy at large odds.
* ...or maybe you let things slide, but when practically every roll goes against you, you reload from back at the start of the turn.
* ...or you can't resist the temptation that "my first attack always hits" what with reload back to start of turn being so close.
* Your loyal or other key unit gets jumped. This can be perceived as AI spite, if you put out several sacrificial lambs in temtping positions and the AI ignores them all in favour of that one unit you didn't want to die.
* Some unforseeable effects cost you a key unit. The Lava in the Sceptre of Fire might be an example of this. This can be particularly nasty if you attempt to mitigate for the disaster and still get caught out.
* A scenario includes a tomato surprise that would have meant you played it completely differently had you known.
* A particular campaign is excellent, but there is one scenario which you find to be massively unbalanced, so you save/reload your way through that scenario because you want to play the rest of the campaign.

Also, if you do save / reload, do you return back to the start of the turn and play the whole turn again, do you save before a key roll and reload from that point or do you save before End of Turn and then reload if you got massacred that turn?

Caphriel
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Caphriel » March 21st, 2012, 2:02 pm

Jabie wrote:* Some unforseeable effects cost you a key unit. The Lava in the Sceptre of Fire might be an example of this. This can be particularly nasty if you attempt to mitigate for the disaster and still get caught out.
* A scenario includes a tomato surprise that would have meant you played it completely differently had you known.
These. My first time playing Sceptre of Fire, I lost on the last scenario when my leader suddenly died to the hex he was on becoming lava. Wut? I reloaded the previous turn and put him somewhere else. That was also the first time I saw a hex become lava, so it did double duty as a tomato surprise!

I hate tomato surprises and consider them bad design (sorry guys :(), but my opinion seems to be in the minority, so I don't play campaigns much for this and other reasons, and when I do, I do things like checking the scenario files for the entire campaign and reading the walkthrough if there is one. I consider losing to a tomato surprise to be a frustrating waste of time, so I do whatever is necessary to avoid that.

I will sometimes reload after particularly awful turns. Not so much that my EV for the campaign is entirely out of proportion with actual results, but usually if the RNG caused me to actually lose. Why? Because Wesnoth campaigns take a lot of time, and I don't have enough to spare to replay an entire scenario because of a bad turn with the RNG :roll:

ToastedToast
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by ToastedToast » March 21st, 2012, 4:25 pm

I usually go back a turn when:
- RNG, if it sucks really badly and leads to losing an important unit (though I don't reset until everything goes well, I usually try to do something smarter on the next try)
- Major surprises - I don't read the Walkthroughs before playing and sometimes the surprises are really really nasty :D
- I realized I failed hard - go a few turns back

I save when:
- The scenario was a pain and I finally made it to a certain point

As for myself, I don't consider it cheating. If it wasn't possible to save and reload I think I would have quit the game because it would turn out to be a waste of time to play a scenario multiple times just because you messed up a turn or something.

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zookeeper
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by zookeeper » March 21st, 2012, 4:50 pm

I load an autosave if I'm just playing casually for fun and happen to lose someone very important or otherwise suffer an un-fun amount of losses, or otherwise make an obvious blunder I wish to correct (like if I failed to notice that an enemy can reach my injured unit and finish it off). I might make mid-turn saves if I suspect tomato surprises or am otherwise in a situation where I cannot afford any back luck and where going back a few turns doesn't help either (scenarios in which I cannot recruit/recall often qualify). If I have a 95% chance of taking out the enemy leader and end the scenario right now rather than three turns later, then I might take my chances and reload if it ends in disaster.

On the other hand, if I'm playing "seriously" (which I still do for fun, but it's a different kind of fun) I try to never load mid-scenario, but frankly if I suffer some really frustrating incident near the end of a long scenario because I just didn't have the resources to play it entirely safe, I might just go back a turn and retry.
Caphriel wrote:I hate tomato surprises and consider them bad design (sorry guys :(), but my opinion seems to be in the minority
Well, I can assure you that at least most if not all mainline campaign developers and maintainers share the sentiment. And helping in fixing some of the remaining surprises wouldn't be a bad idea. :mrgreen:

Caphriel
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Caphriel » March 21st, 2012, 5:09 pm

Really? I thought the prevailing opinion was that in order to preserve the narrative drama, some tomato surprises are unavoidable. As for removing them, well... I'm afraid I don't care strongly enough :) I prefer multiplayer anyway, and I barely have time to play Wesnoth, much less create content :lol2:

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The_Other
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by The_Other » March 21st, 2012, 5:21 pm

Basically, what Zookeeper said.
I try not to reload unless either (a) something happens that makes it near-impossible to win the scenario, or (b) the RNG screws me to such an extent that it is no longer fun to try and recover.
But I will admit, when I make stupid mistakes and can't be bothered to go back and correct them, I sometimes :debug my way out of it (mainly because I want to find out what happens next, rather than repeating what I've already played)
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zookeeper
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by zookeeper » March 21st, 2012, 5:22 pm

Caphriel wrote:Really? I thought the prevailing opinion was that in order to preserve the narrative drama, some tomato surprises are unavoidable.
Some? Sure, light surprises which are very very unlikely to hurt anyone aren't strictly verboten, but the major game-breaking ones are very frowned upon these days. For example, if there's a need to have an enemy-spawning event, then those should (and can!) be done in a way which doesn't put the player's units in immediate danger.

Caphriel
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Caphriel » March 21st, 2012, 8:57 pm

Hmm. Well, I haven't played an official campaign in years, so... :lol2: Maybe I'll have to revisit some of them.

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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Crushmaster » March 23rd, 2012, 6:14 am

Yes.

It's easier, as I'm just playing for fun.
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pauxlo
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by pauxlo » March 28th, 2012, 7:51 pm

When I started to play Wesnoth, I reloaded quite often. At some point I discovered that I can even save and reload between the AI's attacks, which was a quite efficient way to not get any of my units killed.

Later I got better and tried not to reload that often ... and discovered that this way it is actually more fun. (Now I'm on a Wesbreak for some time already, so I can say I didn't reload for more than two years. But I think this doesn't count.)

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The_Other
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by The_Other » March 28th, 2012, 8:21 pm

pauxlo wrote:I discovered that I can even save and reload between the AI's attacks
Yeah, I used to do that all the time - IIRC, I completed Heir to the Throne for the first time without losing a single unit by doing this. But then I got bored with it, and realised that if there's no risk, it takes all the fun out of the game.
Plus, it doesn't seem to work on 1.10 (or else my computer's just too #£@%ing slow to catch it in time!)
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Boldek
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Boldek » March 28th, 2012, 9:17 pm

I try not to save and reload too much, but mostly when a key unit gets jumped. Or when it would be impossible to save a certain unit after an attack.
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Pentarctagon
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Pentarctagon » March 28th, 2012, 11:40 pm

I do mostly because I tend to not position my units the best. Usually it works out fine, but sometimes I get some bad luck and I don't want to start the whole scenario over again when I could just go back a few turns are change where I moved I few units instead.
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Crow_T
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by Crow_T » March 29th, 2012, 10:19 pm

well, generally if an enemy boss or, any enemy unit really, has one hitpoint and all my guys miss, and my last option is a lvl3 to finish him, then I save/load. Same goes if my guys miss and the next guy to kill is an AI ally then I will save/load, no sense in letting those xp go to waste :)

Or, admittedly, if someone really awesome bites it. I'm a bad player.

pauline
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Re: Do you save and reload? If so, why?

Post by pauline » March 30th, 2012, 6:47 pm

I´ve just posted the same answer in
Trying to set up an honest mode of play - by Crow_T (March 10th, 2012)
It never occurred to me that a "save loader" is a "cheater" ... :hmm:
I save all the time but I first try to beat a scenario without save loading.
Only when a single strike towards the end of a scenario kills my hero or one of my main units – trained with great difficulty and expense – I do save load.
Reason:
There are SOOO big differences in the strike power of one and the same unit
that strategies and tactics are ALWAYS beaten by pure luck.
So, am I a cheater ... according to the morality of serious Wesnoth-players ??? :hmm:
pauline

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