Some thoughts on WCNM & Multiplayer

[Glowing Fish]

A while ago, I posted a thread about why there was (seemingly) a decline in multiplayer matches. After watching some multiplayer games, and then watching quite a few games of World Conquest (NM), I think I have an answer.

I think the highest level skill in Wesnoth is learning to form lines, to use your units to mutually support each other, and to form them in such a way that even if bad luck does happen, it won't destroy your overall position. A good line is a pretty intricate thing to create, and involves using mainline and specialty units. For example, a good elven line will involve fighters and archers in the front, a few shamans to heal or slow, mermen to protect water flanks, perhaps a wose for ambush, and then mages to lead an attack, and scouts to flank or grab villages.

The problem with this is...that is a lot of units! For a multiplayer game where the players have the time to recruit that many units and move them into position, the time is prohibitive in terms of real world time. I played a game of Weldyn Channel a few weeks ago, where we were up to Turn 16 with not a single loss on either side, because we had just formed opposing lines and were staring at each other. (This was also a mirror match, which tends to stalemate). By being good players, we were being boring players. Thus, I think most multiplayer games involve quick development, and using teams of a few units. This is much more fun to play, but it doesn't really capture the whole strategic breadth of the game.

I think that is one reason why World Conquest is so popular. Although part of the fun of WC is building an uberhero, that is just icing on the cake. The real good players (mostly jb and paso, who have provided me with so many hours of entertainment) are really, really good at forming lines. They can hold out against literally thousands of gold of enemy units by corralling and rotating their units. I think WC shows some of the highest level strategic thinking at planning ahead, building lines, and conserving resources. Of course, WC takes a long time, but the AI's quick moving is the only way that it is possible to play these types of games without TOTALLY going without sleep or ever leaving the house

I don't actually have any conclusions or suggestions from this (other than, as I have stated many times, there needs to be more YETIS in World Conquest). I hope what I am saying isn't misunderstood as me not believing that standard multiplayer isn't balanced and fun---it is. It is just that I don't believe most multiplayer games can capture the highest level skills in Wesnoth, just because of the prohibitive amount of time that a deeply strategic layered game of Wesnoth would take.

Thank you for reading this far...

[Velensk]

I disagree. I feel that that specific section of strategy is a small (and relatively boring) facet of the highest level of skill in Wesnoth. You can hold off a ton of units with proper formations (even those controlled by a human player rather than a mindless AI) but I do not believe that you can call it a level of skill to itself and it certainly lacks many of the intricacies that competitive multiplayer has at high levels.

[tekelili]

Form a line with healers behind and rotate units to destroy thousand of enemy ai units is not very difficult. In fact, I think experts wc players enjoy more first 3 maps where you still havent developed enougth your army to build an impassible wall.

Only reason why an skilled player vs humans, could fail at do this on his first game on wc, is just because he doesnt know that ai number of units on last maps of wc is so huge, that this is mostly the only viable tactic.

[jb]

I would say the strategy in WC is more about knowing the scenario, and it's variables, rather than any special wesnoth skill.

[Glowing Fish]

I disagree. I feel that that specific section of strategy is a small (and relatively boring) facet of the highest level of skill in Wesnoth. You can hold off a ton of units with proper formations (even those controlled by a human player rather than a mindless AI) but I do not believe that you can call it a level of skill to itself and it certainly lacks many of the intricacies that competitive multiplayer has at high levels.

Well, I might have simplified what I was saying...of course, just setting up a line of Dwarvish Stalwarts and rotating them as the AI sends units to die against them is neither fun nor a challenge.

But the important part of a line is that you are using your units together towards an overall end, rather than focusing on whether you can kill a specific unit. Part of that is actually breaking the line, knowing how to send out units that will be killed but doing it in such a way that your overall army ends up better for it.

[Velensk]

I understood what you meant. I still disagree. Among other things, Wesnoths base mechanics tend to make it relatively simple (no stacking, true ranged attacks, air support, ect. I have played board games that make the line building/breaking/misc formation tactics that are more sophisticated than Wesnoth however I would say that Wesnoth is easily a more interesting game overall.

[salade]

first of all, i agree knowing how to develop a line of defense is really important. A good line could reduce damage intake significantly and help your units to survive. without a line, your units will be attacked from 3+ direction and could get killed easily, and u can't form a safe zone behind the line to heal up or protect dying units. I always recommend people to put all their units in a group rather than spread out to fight in different area as you won't have enough units to form a line if you spread out.

"forming line" shall mean more than putting units in a line and healer in the back. The art of forming defense line in world conquest covers more than just putting units together and healer at the back and rotating units, "behind" the line, there are:

• learn what's the enemy and build correct unit type
• find the right place to defend. the map is random and one got to find an optimal location to fight. it is mainly depend on your faction and enemies' faction, and also affect the time of enemies' arrival, availability of healing (if u don't have healer, u got to pick a location near/on village to fight) etc.
• pick the right time to station in your line.

To me, all of the above factors are basically just basic Wesnoth principles. They apply to any Wesnoth game including player-vs-player games. A major difference in WC, in high difficulty, is that there are really *a lot* of enemies. I'm playing a WC nightmare map 5 in turn 8 at the moment, and my stats is 280 kills. The fights are very intense.

I play WC with different people all the time and I could tell whether a player is good at WC easily. Some examples of common new player mistakes are:

• just do not send scout
• build a lot of identical units before knowing their enemy. if you have to recruit before you know the enemy, it's a better strategy to recruit units with different damage type
• just keep advance forward and fight wherever they meet the enemy. a much better way is to pick the area of fight and stand there to wait for enemy to come
• fight in bad time. retreating is normal in WC. e.g. if it is night time and you are in the attack radius of 2 Revenants (L2 skel), just move back so it can't hit you

[tekelili]

I must be doing something wrong Salade, because every time I have knalgans as allies, I get darvish fighters as new recruit on map 3 and just recruit them witout take care of what enemy I am facing

And just a little advise about a mistake I see too often: Form line on the best terrain and let enemy hit you. I usually retreat a litlle from the best terrain, let enmey get near, kill dangerous lvl2 and lvl 3, and then, advance on the best terrain covering my xp units that killed them.

EDIT: Advise is mostly for first 3 or 4 maps. On latest maps you usually have such indesturctible lvl3 monsters and AI have a so dense line of units that take the best terain from start is usually good.

[salade]

I must be doing something wrong Salade, because every time I have knalgans as allies, I get darvish fighters as new recruit on map 3 and just recruit them witout take care of what enemy I am facing

And just a little advise about a mistake I see too often: Form line on the best terrain and let enemy hit you. I usually retreat a litlle from the best terrain, let enmey get near, kill dangerous lvl2 and lvl 3, and then, advance on the best terrain covering my xp units that killed them.

EDIT: Advise is mostly for first 3 or 4 maps. On latest maps you usually have such indesturctible lvl3 monsters and AI have a so dense line of units that take the best terain from start is usually good.

Dwarf fighter has both blade and impact damage that make them very useful, but there is no single unit type that is best against any enemy. e.g. against clashers, thunderer is simply better than fighter. I think if you got it in the recruitment list, it's always good to get one or two to level them up. My guidelines are mainly for new players. Using the right unit type will make your fight much easier. When you got the right unit to deal damage, e.g. thunderer vs clasher, you could always create environment for your preferred unit (like Dwarf fighter) to get xp.

your point about terrain is interesting. For me, the terrain principles do not apply for the initial engagement when luring the enemies. as long as they won't kill my unit its fine to stand on bad def terrain. For the initial engagement, all my units are in full hp and any damaged one could be put to village for a few rounds to recover without significantly affect the battle. (btw, i won't use my hero or key units like intelligent-strong fighter to lure) if u stand in a good terrain, the enemy will probably won't come to attack u in the most desirable position. The OP mentioned about "highest level skill in Wesnoth", i would say being able to manipulate AI's movement, predict which unit will they attack and correctly assess your survivability are some of the highest level skills in WC.

My main consideration is whether the terrain in overall can allow me to build a line of defense that the enemy won't be able to attack me from multiple spots while most (if not all) of my units could stand on high def terrain. some other considerations are:

• what terrain the enemy will stand on when they hit me, e.g. if I'm dwarf and fight against elf, standing on hill that is next to 2-3 forest spot could be a bad idea
• distance to the keep, only the map has enough village to support recruitment and my leader doesn't have teleport
• my unit types, e.g. if i use cheap units like spearman or footpad, it's less critical to put them in high def terrain. If play dwarf, i usually recruit a few footpad to cover those forest or plain spots
• how close to village, how close the enemy could get back to their village (esp when i use poison), e.g. if a red-hp enemy can reach a village in one turn, they usually will retreat to the village, but if they can't reach a village, they may just stand still.

The "advance forward terrain" is a bonus but not the most important to me. We seldom need to kill an enemy quickly. If we can't kill and then cover our unit on high def terrain, we could just leave it alive and kill in the next turn. And if we really need to stand on plain ground to fight, we could always put fodder at the frontline. And also consider that, u may not be able to kill a L2/3 dude in one turn and if stand behind the best terrain, u may not be able to take control again.

I always prioritize damage reduction (i.e. i stand on a high def area) higher than damage dealing (i.e. the enemy stand on a weak def terrain) so plain ground behind river is not necessarily a good defense area to me.