Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

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Gambit
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Gambit »

To answer the thread title. Yes. Every single time without fail.
If they both have 25 gold and no income.

Just_end_turn
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Just_end_turn »

Actually, on some standards map, you can beat the Ai with 800 gold and you 75. (No, i'm not talking about Cynsaun, Weldyn Channel works.)

Well, at least it should be doable, I made it with 100.

But that's only if you choose matchup :lol2:

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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Crushmaster »

Gambit wrote:To answer the thread title. Yes. Every single time without fail.
If they both have 25 gold and no income.
Yes, that does make it quite foolproof.
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Badut
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Badut »

Which leads to an interesting question:

What do you think the default AI's ELO rating would be?

It would be well below 1500 (average player) I think.

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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Caphriel »

Zero. Because generally people who join the ladder are good enough to beat the AI every time.

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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by SatHyre »

hello,

1 vs 1 against the AI is very easy. to have more difficulties, i make some setup :
- normal setup but i don't recruit more than 12 units. very difficult if you lose 3 or 4 units at the beginning. need THE good recruit.
- or income +8 for the AI. i began with +2, then +5 and now i play +8. difficult against notherners because AI spams units especially grunt.

i tried against 2 AI. normal setup. did it twice. lost these 2 games badly. :doh:

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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Glowing Fish »

There are many many challenging possibilities inherent in Auction-X.
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Chris7mas »

I tried it now and played little quick, but still managed to beat it. Settings: Weldyn Channel, default for me, +10 gold income for AI, both random (both got Northerners). Replay attached.

Regarding 1vs2 on some 3p map, I remember I tried it in the past and think got beaten, but I'll try again these days and come back with the replay.

Edit: 1vs2 AI on random map, all factions random, 40x40, everything default -- pretty easy to win this one. I tried on a standard 3p map though and got beaten badly (Island of the Horatii was the map I played). Does anyone succeeded in beating 2 AI on it?
Attachments
Random_map_replay.gz
Me (elves) vs 2 AI (elves and dwarfs)
(35.74 KiB) Downloaded 79 times
2p_-_Weldyn_Channel_replay_win_ai_10income.gz
(38.02 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Ferox »

I can take out three AI at once without fail.

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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by HomerJ »

RODNH!

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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Jetrel »

I would like to commend everyone in this thread (one or two exceptions notwithstanding), for their overwhelming honesty in admitting the normal limitations of their skill. We used to have a huge problem with cocky "gosu-gamers" pretending like no AI can ever beat a human, and that's just poisonous to the community.

It's just not true for wesnoth, because wesnoth is not nearly as able to deal "uncontested damage" as something like starcraft. In a game like starcraft, you can easily manipulate the enemy into receiving damage without a single retaliatory point of damage - that's what siege tanks and high templar are all about. If you can fool the enemy into it, you can beat an infinite amount of enemies. But in wesnoth, most units will deal a small amount of retaliation if you attack them; the only exception being a rare few melee-only troops. Our maps are so open that it's very difficult/impossible to form a single "300 spartans" bottleneck to hold off the horde and refresh injured troops.


I also find playing against multiple AIs much, much harder than playing against a single AI with equivalent gold. I think the big reason this happens is because, as two armies, they gain three additional bonuses a single army does not have (not always applicable, but usually at least 2 are):
- they're able to recruit twice as fast (2x castle space)
- they're able to threaten you from two, rather than one front(s).
- they're able to mix complimentary troop mixtures (such as the beastly offense of allied drakes and undead, which results in a faction that is able to deal high offense around the clock).
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Glowing Fish »

Jetrel wrote:I would like to commend everyone in this thread (one or two exceptions notwithstanding), for their overwhelming honesty in admitting the normal limitations of their skill. We used to have a huge problem with cocky "gosu-gamers" pretending like no AI can ever beat a human, and that's just poisonous to the community.

It's just not true for wesnoth, because wesnoth is not nearly as able to deal "uncontested damage" as something like starcraft. In a game like starcraft, you can easily manipulate the enemy into receiving damage without a single retaliatory point of damage - that's what siege tanks and high templar are all about. If you can fool the enemy into it, you can beat an infinite amount of enemies. But in wesnoth, most units will deal a small amount of retaliation if you attack them; the only exception being a rare few melee-only troops. Our maps are so open that it's very difficult/impossible to form a single "300 spartans" bottleneck to hold off the horde and refresh injured troops.


I also find playing against multiple AIs much, much harder than playing against a single AI with equivalent gold. I think the big reason this happens is because, as two armies, they gain three additional bonuses a single army does not have (not always applicable, but usually at least 2 are):
- they're able to recruit twice as fast (2x castle space)
- they're able to threaten you from two, rather than one front(s).
- they're able to mix complimentary troop mixtures (such as the beastly offense of allied drakes and undead, which results in a faction that is able to deal high offense around the clock).
Very insightful post, although I would also like to mention that what you are saying is not absolutely true of Wesnoth, as much as it is true of the settings that are normally used with multiplayer, and the maps available for multiplayer.

It actually is quite possible for an experienced player to deploy a line of troops in such a way that the AI can't break it. I've seen plenty of games of World Conquest on Nightmare where the players held off 2000+ gold of enemy troops...because they had time to deploy their armies in actual complete lines, and circle them through.

The problem with this type of line fighting is it can get quite conservative, which is to say boring. That is why most multiplayer maps don't have complete lines of defensive terrain, to stop stale-mates.

When I tried playing Alirok Marsh on slightly different settings... 300 gold against 2 AIs with 300 gold, Age of Heroes... I was able to defend one front pretty well, but I couldn't get to the southern front and establish a line in time. If I was able to do so, I do believe I could have won without too much difficulty.
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by wesfreak »

I recently played two games on random maps 3 player maps against 2 ai's. One of the games was with default era and I won, the other game wasn't and I lost. (I won with drakes against 2 pairs of elves).

Beating 2 ai's on one of the default 3 player maps would prove to be difficult: It would be hard to form a good line before the enemy gets to you. On a larger map you have space to move, to avoid the enemy and steal villages. Random maps have 4 corners and only 3 are occupied so you can take control half the map briefly with scouts and make it so, temporarily, you have almost as much money as the 2 enemies combined. From there it's just a matter of killing twice as many units as you lose. (although this might have been easier because I was drakes)

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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by Chris7mas »

Jetrel wrote:I would like to commend everyone in this thread (one or two exceptions notwithstanding), for their overwhelming honesty in admitting the normal limitations of their skill. We used to have a huge problem with cocky "gosu-gamers" pretending like no AI can ever beat a human, and that's just poisonous to the community.

It's just not true for wesnoth, because wesnoth is not nearly as able to deal "uncontested damage" as something like starcraft. In a game like starcraft, you can easily manipulate the enemy into receiving damage without a single retaliatory point of damage - that's what siege tanks and high templar are all about. If you can fool the enemy into it, you can beat an infinite amount of enemies. But in wesnoth, most units will deal a small amount of retaliation if you attack them; the only exception being a rare few melee-only troops. Our maps are so open that it's very difficult/impossible to form a single "300 spartans" bottleneck to hold off the horde and refresh injured troops.


I also find playing against multiple AIs much, much harder than playing against a single AI with equivalent gold. I think the big reason this happens is because, as two armies, they gain three additional bonuses a single army does not have (not always applicable, but usually at least 2 are):
- they're able to recruit twice as fast (2x castle space)
- they're able to threaten you from two, rather than one front(s).
- they're able to mix complimentary troop mixtures (such as the beastly offense of allied drakes and undead, which results in a faction that is able to deal high offense around the clock).
No offense jetrel, but Starcraft was 13 years ago. I got your point, even though you're kind of missing it :) In Wesnoth the AI can throw units at you, just like in Tetris pieces can go faster.
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Re: Anybody able to beat two AI opponents?

Post by PeterPorty »

Chris7mas wrote:
Jetrel wrote:I would like to commend everyone in this thread (one or two exceptions notwithstanding), for their overwhelming honesty in admitting the normal limitations of their skill. We used to have a huge problem with cocky "gosu-gamers" pretending like no AI can ever beat a human, and that's just poisonous to the community.

It's just not true for wesnoth, because wesnoth is not nearly as able to deal "uncontested damage" as something like starcraft. In a game like starcraft, you can easily manipulate the enemy into receiving damage without a single retaliatory point of damage - that's what siege tanks and high templar are all about. If you can fool the enemy into it, you can beat an infinite amount of enemies. But in wesnoth, most units will deal a small amount of retaliation if you attack them; the only exception being a rare few melee-only troops. Our maps are so open that it's very difficult/impossible to form a single "300 spartans" bottleneck to hold off the horde and refresh injured troops.


I also find playing against multiple AIs much, much harder than playing against a single AI with equivalent gold. I think the big reason this happens is because, as two armies, they gain three additional bonuses a single army does not have (not always applicable, but usually at least 2 are):
- they're able to recruit twice as fast (2x castle space)
- they're able to threaten you from two, rather than one front(s).
- they're able to mix complimentary troop mixtures (such as the beastly offense of allied drakes and undead, which results in a faction that is able to deal high offense around the clock).
No offense jetrel, but Starcraft was 13 years ago. I got your point, even though you're kind of missing it :) In Wesnoth the AI can throw units at you, just like in Tetris pieces can go faster.
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