Wesnoth and Religion

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Sapient
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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Sapient »

There have been a number of controversial and just-plain-wrong things stated about Christianity in this thread, but in the interest of not fanning the flames, I'm not going to address them at this time. Anyone who is not just trying to create a spectacle but is a serious student of these matters and thinks I might have an ability to help them in their search for the truth, may feel free to contact me privately and I invite them to do so.

However, back to the original topic of Religion in Wesnoth-- it was brought up in the Ideas forum recently and I'll link to my response here:

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 60#p393560
Wesnoth is about combat between mortals, not combat between deities. While there may not be officially sanctioned gods, per se, there are beings of great magical power (which is pretty much the same thing, depending on your definition of a god). A real bonafide God would be, in game terms, just too overpowered. And as for false, ineffectual gods... well why would anyone pray to a false, ineffectual god if real, actual magic and beings of great magical power were in plain existence?

The NRIW policy is an unofficial thing really. The reason cross icons and 'holy' damage are removed is because we don't want are real world religions (or shallow alterations thereof) to end up in official Wesnoth content. If you want to make a campaign about the Roman Catholic Church fighting against hordes of Buddhist monks, then there's no one to stop you. Just don't expect it to enter the official distribution.

Personally, I'm content to leave people to their own imagination and I hope it stays that way.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Midnight_Carnival »

You know when you quickly post something before going away for the weekend and expect to find nobody replied while you were away, then when you come back you find there are more replies than you can be reasonably expected to read before hurrying to the shop? Yes one of those...
There have been a number of controversial and just-plain-wrong things stated about Christianity in this thread
I'm sorry, that was never my intention, and yes, I was serious in the questions I posted, but I see that they are adequately answered by the few posts I have read.

So there is a policy of having magic in Wesnoth, but not emphasising it, and not making it or any religions influential in terms of the game or playing the game, it is therefore more popular amongst Christians than say Harry Potter which is foccused on the magic?
Well I'm quite against Harry Potter, but not because of the emphasis on magic, rather because it was a crappy, lame story about this pathetic kid who finds he has super-powers and uses them to afford himself a place in the society which gave him hell, rather than trying to change it for the better, I disaporve of the ideologies I see in it.

That asside, I would like to reemphasise that although I did mention extremists with regards to my question, I catagorically stated that I was not trying to imply that all Christians (or believers of any religion) should be viewed in terms of these extremists.
I have a number of questions regarding Christian beliefs and magic, but I won't post them for fear of un necesarry conflict. If there is anyone who thinks they know all the answers before they have even heard the questions I will ask, please PM me, I will try to be respectful of your beliefs in my dealings with you.

-thanks.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Sapient »

Here's a horrible oversimplification of a biblical view of "magic".

If a supernatural power ("magic" as some would perceive it) exists in reality but does not come from faith in God then that means it must necessarily come from some other source in the spiritual realm, i.e. from those in rebellion against God led by Satan. (Compared to angels and certainly God, humans are incredibly weak so they should not be considered a source of any significant power, if any at all.) So it is not the power itself that is evil, but it is where you are getting it from. On the other hand, if the power does not exist in reality but only in make-believe, then the source of that power is simply your own mind. The sinfulness or purity of make-believe powers is therefore determined by the sinfulness or purity of the mind itself. As it is written: "To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted."
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by SkeleRanger »

Sapient wrote:On the other hand, if the power does not exist in reality but only in make-believe, then the source of that power is simply your own mind. The sinfulness or purity of make-believe powers is therefore determined by the sinfulness or purity of the mind itself.
So in past witch burnings (such as the Salem Witch Trials), which minds were impure, those of the "witches" or the witch-burners?
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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Gwynnedrion »

Captain_Wrathbow wrote: Oh yeah- on a more humorous note: about pokemon- my parents used to not let me play pokemon games because it promoted evolution. Yeeaah, I don't get that one either..... :lol2:
Wow, I mean, I'm Christian as well (I asume your parents are) and I was raised such but here (in Europe, maybe that's the difference) evolution is a scientific fact. And to see Pokémon as propaganda for Darwin's Theory? But I've learned that in America -no offence- religion is still much deeper and has more influence then oversea.
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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

SkeleRanger wrote: So in past witch burnings (such as the Salem Witch Trials), which minds were impure, those of the "witches" or the witch-burners?
Witchcraft, (the "real" kind, that is, in real life, which gets its power from demonic sources) is very wrong.

Whether killing them was right or wrong is disputable.

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Gwynnedrion »

Hulavuta wrote:I'm kind of holding back here because I don't want to end up with this closed or myself banned, but that makes it more of a philosophy for you rather than a religion.
Well, who says religion isn't a philosophy? Most Greek philosopicall ideas later turned out as a "religion".
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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by SkeleRanger »

Captain_Wrathbow wrote: Witchcraft, (the "real" kind, that is, in real life, which gets its power from demonic sources) is very wrong.

Whether killing them was right or wrong is disputable.
I agree with this 100%. What I meant was that if make believe magic is evil due to the impurity of the mind imagining them, them in cases of unjust witch-burnings, it was the ones to doing the burnings that were imagining the nasty wicked powers.
Gwynnedrion wrote:
Captain_Wrathbow wrote: Oh yeah- on a more humorous note: about pokemon- my parents used to not let me play pokemon games because it promoted evolution. Yeeaah, I don't get that one either..... :lol2:
Wow, I mean, I'm Christian as well (I asume your parents are) and I was raised such but here (in Europe, maybe that's the difference) evolution is a scientific fact. And to see Pokémon as propaganda for Darwin's Theory? But I've learned that in America -no offence- religion is still much deeper and has more influence then oversea.
Next, find a die-hard professor of biology and tell him you refuse to play Spore because it promotes evolution. Then sit back and watch the sparks fly. :twisted:
'We've strayed into a zone with a high magical index... Don't ask me how. Once upon a time a really powerful magic field must have been generated here, and we're feeling the after-effects.'
'Precisely,' said a passing bush.
--Terry Pratchett
Tale of a Mage(finished)
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Gwynnedrion
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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Gwynnedrion »

SkeleRanger wrote:
Captain_Wrathbow wrote: Witchcraft, (the "real" kind, that is, in real life, which gets its power from demonic sources) is very wrong.

Whether killing them was right or wrong is disputable.
I agree with this 100%. What I meant was that if make believe magic is evil due to the impurity of the mind imagining them, them in cases of unjust witch-burnings, it was the ones to doing the burnings that were imagining the nasty wicked powers.
Gwynnedrion wrote: Wow, I mean, I'm Christian as well (I asume your parents are) and I was raised such but here (in Europe, maybe that's the difference) evolution is a scientific fact. And to see Pokémon as propaganda for Darwin's Theory? But I've learned that in America -no offence- religion is still much deeper and has more influence then oversea.
Next, find a die-hard professor of biology and tell him you refuse to play Spore because it promotes evolution. Then sit back and watch the sparks fly. :twisted:
Now this I like :) Once dressed up as a medium, went to McDonalds and at the register asked the "High Spirites" what they'd prefer. McMenu of Happy Meal. Should have seen the guy's face... :lol2:
”Rise, adept, and tell me about the enemy.”

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

SkeleRanger wrote:Next, find a die-hard professor of biology and tell him you refuse to play Spore because it promotes evolution. Then sit back and watch the sparks fly. :twisted:
Actually, I don't play spore, for that very reason. I've never talked to any biology professors about it though...

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by pauxlo »

Sapient wrote:Here's a horrible oversimplification of a biblical view of "magic".

If a supernatural power ("magic" as some would perceive it) exists in reality but does not come from faith in God then that means it must necessarily come from some other source in the spiritual realm, i.e. from those in rebellion against God led by Satan. (Compared to angels and certainly God, humans are incredibly weak so they should not be considered a source of any significant power, if any at all.)
And how to distinguish whether the power comes from "faith in God" (this is usually called a wonder, I think) or from a pact with Satan (or similar), from the outside?

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by johndh »

pauxlo wrote:And how to distinguish whether the power comes from "faith in God" (this is usually called a wonder, I think) or from a pact with Satan (or similar), from the outside?
You can't, at least sometimes anyway. Take Joan D'Arc for example. The Catholics burned her at the stake for being a witch, assuming her visions/miracles/etc. were from Satan, but then they named her a saint because they changed their minds.
It's spelled "definitely", not "definately". "Defiantly" is a different word entirely.

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by boru »

Since she was burned at the stake in 1431 and made a saint almost 500 years later, we can safely say they were not the same Catholics, and therefore "changed their minds" is a bit of an exaggeration.
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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

Also, (and I know I'm going to take a lot of heat for this statement) I don't put Catholicism and Protestant Reformed Christianity together.

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Re: Wesnoth and Religion

Post by artisticdude »

johndh wrote:You can't, at least sometimes anyway. Take Joan D'Arc for example. The Catholics burned her at the stake for being a witch, assuming her visions/miracles/etc. were from Satan, but then they named her a saint because they changed their minds.
You have to remember, however, that the Catholics by whom she was sentenced were very much embroiled in (and corrupted by) the politics of the day.
Captain_Wrathbow wrote:Also, (and I know I'm going to take a lot of heat for this statement) I don't put Catholicism and Protestant Reformed Christianity together.
Nor do I. Protestants rejected and/or changed (and/or created their own) Catholic teachings and values when they broke away. Hence they cannot be considered Catholics, since they don't believe all of what Catholics believe.
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