Elvish Lord/High Lord

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monochromatic
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Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by monochromatic »

I was looking at http://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/C/mainline.html today, and I saw that the Elvish Lord has the same number of hp and melee attacks as the Hero! Not only does it have a magical and more powerful ranged attack, it has 6 mp and 70% rather than 60% defense on forests. And the High Lord has (less hp than the Champion) more hp than the Marshal and the same sword attack as the Marshal, plus an uber-powerful magical ranged. And the ranged damage for the Lord to the High Lord jumps from 7-3 to 7-5.

It's not like this will affect mainline balance (because it's not a mainline unit), but just for flavor reasons, why is the Lord soooo powerful? I don't know, but I think the Lord should be modified to a 7-4 melee attack [and maybe 6-4 magical ranged to make the transition smoother?], and 49 hp, with 60% defense on forest, keeping the 6 mp. What do you think?
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thespaceinvader
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by thespaceinvader »

Because he's basically Kalenz, who is uber.

In other words, it's a campaign only unit, it really doesn't matter, as long as the campaign is balanced. Blasting the snot out of stuff with Kalenz is among the more fun aspects of HttT =D
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zookeeper
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by zookeeper »

thespaceinvader wrote:Because he's basically Kalenz, who is uber.

In other words, it's a campaign only unit, it really doesn't matter, as long as the campaign is balanced. Blasting the snot out of stuff with Kalenz is among the more fun aspects of HttT =D
Funnily enough, for me Kalenz is usually the weakest link, that is the one whose death most commonly causes me to lose. He has decent stats but for some reason he just tends to die a lot. It's not as bad as when his magic attack still did cold damage, though.
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Zarel
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by Zarel »

In other other words, "Hero" units like the Elvish Lord, Human Fighter, Princess, Elder Mage, Troll Hero, Ancient Lich, Orcish Leader, etc, are not supposed to be balanced among other units of their level, and are usually slightly stronger.
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chaoticwanderer
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by chaoticwanderer »

It's not 'unbalanced' as long as he's priced higher, to show that he's a top-notch unit for his level.
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Pentarctagon
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by Pentarctagon »

yes, you are going to be recruiting an elvish lord :roll:
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by The Great Rings »

zookeeper wrote:
thespaceinvader wrote:Because he's basically Kalenz, who is uber.

In other words, it's a campaign only unit, it really doesn't matter, as long as the campaign is balanced. Blasting the snot out of stuff with Kalenz is among the more fun aspects of HttT =D
Funnily enough, for me Kalenz is usually the weakest link, that is the one whose death most commonly causes me to lose. He has decent stats but for some reason he just tends to die a lot. It's not as bad as when his magic attack still did cold damage, though.
Could it be that his power encourages one to be a little reckless with him?

Personally, I`d be more worried about Li`sar or Delfador dying, though.
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by HomerJ »

The Great Rings wrote:
Personally, I`d be more worried about Li`sar or Delfador dying, though.
Emphasis mine. Before she gets equipped with void armor and scepter, that is. :lol2:


Yeah, so usually no problems with Kalenz, Delf is a different story.

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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by Captain_Wrathbow »

HomerJ wrote:Before she gets equipped with void armor and scepter, that is.
It's true. Before those, I usually have her just stand back at the keep. After getting the Sceptre she gets plenty of chances for experience and leveling. Then she rocks.

Delfador. Never. Dies.
Seriously, I have never had a problem with him dying. :?
On that scenario where you have to cross the river with loys on the south bank and orcs at the north, and monsters in the river, I made a pretty stupid mistake. I took konrad and a bunch of mermen across the river and left Delf and kalenz on the bottom to huddle together in the SE corner. (I figured the less Hero units I left vulnerable in the water, the better) I soon realized that might not have been a good idea. But it turned out that they slaughtered half the loyalist army before Konrad got t across the river. :D

Kalenz is... okay. For me, the one I have to protect a lot is actually Konrad. :P
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by artisticdude »

Delfador dies all the time when I get ahold of him. I get wrapped up in the "blood, orcs, kill!' thing, and I keep sending him in over his balding head- so he gets swamped. I don't know why, but there's something very attractive about overusing a mage with 14-4 lightning attacks. :P
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by HomerJ »

I have a vague memory of Bowmen and Longbowmen suiciding on Delf on Test of the Clans, but can't say for sure... other than that you rarely meet ranged units that could do that to him so I guess he is ok.

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Kalajel
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by Kalajel »

The Great Rings wrote:Could it be that his power encourages one to be a little reckless with him?
Lol, yeah I know… At time I've been thinking "well he has enough hp to soak the enemy's attack, and even if he hits with all but one of them, he should still be alive then i can retreat him to have him healed and the other guy will be more hurt than me…". For some odd reason, it's precisely at those moments that the RGN decided to screw me over… :lol2:
monochromatic
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by monochromatic »

I actually always forget that Delfador is not an elf. That he only has 50%, not 70% defense on forests. So I always put him on a patch of forest with something like 34 hp with two Orcish Warriors standing nearby. :augh: Ouch.
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by Tonepoet »

Kalenez is the only one of the bunch who naturally has high melee and ranged. Since he isn't allowed to die, this acts as a double edged sword. What probably happens for you zookeeper is that he's too effective on the retaliation, kills a unit and frees up another attack hex for an extra attack to be performed somewhere along the line.

Delfador wouldn't suffer from this as much because he's a ranged unit and would preferably be attacking melee units, meaning he gets directly attacked more often by melee hits which he can't do so well. This reduces the likelihood that he's able to kill something, leaving him with more leftover H.P. overall.

That's the theory anyway and it doesn't really account for differences in defense. Keep in mind that Delfy is effectively a mildly crippled Great Mage and may be a full level higher than Kalenez battlewise. This may make up for the difference. The true moral of the story is that higher attack isn't necessarily better.

Also, like the others said, it's a special unit so it doesn't have to be balanced per se, it just has to have the a desirable effect on the atmosphere of the scenarios its in. If you want a powerful elvish official of high clout and battle prowess following your guys around, the Elvish Lord does the job just fine. If you want to use something more on the balanced side, there are plenty of other level 3 elves who you can substitute in just as nicely. It's pretty much up to the content creator to decide what they want and if something doesn't quite fit, you can always make a custom unit using the same images, at least for single player campaigns anyway.
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Frogger5
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Re: Elvish Lord/High Lord

Post by Frogger5 »

elvish_sovereign wrote:I actually always forget that Delfador is not an elf. That he only has 50%, not 70% defense on forests. So I always put him on a patch of forest with something like 34 hp with two Orcish Warriors standing nearby. :augh: Ouch.
Actually, I was rather confident with old Delphie' maybe too comfident sometimes. When he does is lighthing attack... boy are you in for a show.

It's like the emenies heath bar got struck by lightning. Get it? :lol2: Lighting? :D Health bar? :) No? :o damn. :(
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