new player frustrated about losing leveled units

[cephalo]

Hi everyone,

I'm new and I came to complain about the influence of luck in this game. Then when I got here, I see that this topic has been discussed ad nauseum. I have read through some related threads (like the sticky) and I want to add something that I haven't seen mentioned.

After reading the rationale for the high degree of randomness involved in succesful attacks, I think I do appreciate the thought that went into this and, in terms of winning and losing scenarios, I think that this does add a certain amount of realism that can make a game more immersive. There's nothing more random than warfare. People who have studied war their whole lives have had their reputations ruined by luck. I'm am happy to have recently discovered this game.

However, as a new player, let me explain what is spoiling my fun. After playing through about 5 scenarios of the first 'heir to the throne' campaign, I find myself intensely attracted to the levelling system. I don't even care that much about winning the scenarios, because so far they have been pretty easy. I must find out what my choices are when one of my units dings a new level. What a wonderful process of discovery! I love it!

However... I'm losing all my good guys!!!! I'm giving them every advantage and they DIE!!!! Sometimes my whole army misses all their attacks the moment I decide to risk getting some xp on my chosen! I can keep my good guys in the back ranks and only pick off low level stragglers and it's not enough! They die anyway as some unit crosses the whole battlefield to slay my champion who normally hides in the rear! I can't claim to have mastered the risk management involved, but even though the scenarios are entirely winnable even for a novice, I'm up against a WALL when it comes to the levelling game. It's intensely frustrating. I'm turning into a save scumming lunatic!

The thing is, while the overall game gives you the tools to overcome the shovel fulls of bad luck thrown at you, the levelling game is completely unforgiving in this regard. For a unit to get to level 3, he has to survive many encounters with enemy units and each individual encounter can go horribly wrong. I have already lost a few level 2 units attacking isolated damaged level 1 units in bad defensive terrain. It's amazing how a 70% percent chance to hit can result in all misses 2 turns in a row. If you want your unit to gain xp, you have to attack something with that unit! Over time, it is very unlikely that a unit will get to a high level without a mishap unless you completely reject the idea that your higher level unit should try to help you in the current scenario. In that case though, the benefits of leveling are deferred until max level, and as luck would have it, he will probably die in his first serious contact with an enemy LOL.

I'm not even suggesting that the game be changed. I just need some serious visual help with risk management. What is my unit's chance of dying if he moves to a square? That's something I'm having the most difficulty with. It's giving me a headache!

[PaulInBHC]

Agreed. Most frustrating part of the game.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Um, no, it's not that bad at all. If you leave your experienced unit vulnerable at the end of the turn, that's your own fault. Let him make his move, then use low level cannon fodder to screen him. You can find out what moves an enemy unit can make by putting the mouse over them. Make it so the enemy can't easily get to them, or if they can, it won't be by anyone with the potential to make any real moves.

Granted this is a skill that has taken me a while to acquire and one I'm still working on, but it can be done.

[Bellerophon]

Oh look, it's this topic again.

[Dave]

It's really part of the challenge of the game!

It is possible to get lots of level 3 units -- plenty of people have done it! Managing contingencies so that your experienced units don't die is challenging, but it is possible. If we were to make it easy to keep your level 2 units, you'd get them all up to level 3 in no time, have a super advanced army and the game would be boring.

David

[Jyuukenbu]

^ Very much agreed.

Luck is the challenge of this game. It is the bane that players must overcome in any campaign, not the actual computer AI itself, in my opinion. If luck had less of a role in the game, the campaigns would be ridiculously easy.

[Zarel]

(It's fine; it's not like the post is arguing for changing the leveling system.)

Anyway, the influence of luck is minimal; with the proper strategy, you can avoid losing very many experienced units - losing them should only come once every many scenarios, and, hey, you can always restart the scenario.

I mean, all you have to get a few L1's to L2, and one of those L2's to L3. It's not that hard. One consideration is that you should try to avoid giving kills to your L3's when you can. Leave it to your other L2's, which will actually benefit from the experience. Sure, some units take lots of XP to get to highest level, but those are usually units that are easy to level, like mages, which you just protect until it can go in for the kill.

[Greep]

one thing that'll help is learning zone of control. Once you get used to blocking you'll be able to protect a unit from being attacked AT ALL with sometimes as little as 1 or 2 units in front. Another thing is terrain advantage. Many times it may be a bad idea to kill a vulnerable enemy if the unit you're trying to level gets stuck in water or something.

Lastly, and most importantly, you will not level your entire army. It's better to focus leveling at most 4 units a scenario and using the rest as bodyguards/actually beating the darned scenario.

[cephalo]

I'm going to try again. I needed to come here for some psychological readjustment. I should not feel compelled to rely on my high level units. My recruits need to do the bulk of the fighting. My first units need to be recruits, and my high levels will come out later when I have the situation under control.

Ok, deep breath!

[The Black Sword]

Why not try post up a replay the next time you lose a lot of units in a scenario. I'm sure someone would take a look at it and tell you where you can improve. It is possible that severe luck is hampering your ability to level but from your post it sounds like your play could be improved a bit as well.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I'm going to try again. I needed to come here for some psychological readjustment. I should not feel compelled to rely on my high level units. My recruits need to do the bulk of the fighting. My first units need to be recruits, and my high levels will come out later when I have the situation under control.

Ok, deep breath!

Kind of, but not quite. Keep in mind that each of your units can move every turn, so plan around that. When charging forward, let your heavy guys move in and take the enemy out, then screen them with cannon fodder later that same turn. Also be sure to try to cycle injured units where they can't be attacked, and next to a healer if available, on a village if not. Just don't leave other units vulnerable by doing so.

Also, it's not necessary to make sure that no enemy units can attack your experienced guys, just that no one that's a threat to him can. If you can cut it down to one hex open to attack, for instance, your big guy my be able to do quite well. It also depends on which enemy units are within striking distance of him. You may even be able to trick an enemy into an expecially vulnerable position that way.

Don't forget that you can undo moves that don't involve attacks, spotting new units, or FOW. This allows you to move a unit, then mouse over the enemy to see how ZOC effect his potential moves, then undo and try again. You guy may look vulnerable, but if no one can reach him because of the one L1 guy's LOC, he's not in as much danger as you might think. Unless, of course, he dies really quickly, allowing other units to get by him.

[Kymille]

I have to say I don't see what luck has to do with your complaint. If there were no luck, the computer AI would surely be able to kill some of your units while you wipe out his army. The AI does target your units that are closest to leveling up.

[Sapient]

Hey, welcome to the forums.

Thanks, by the way, for reading up on past discussions about this topic before brining it up. That step is often overlooked by newcomers.

After playing through about 5 scenarios of the first 'heir to the throne' campaign, I find myself intensely attracted to the levelling system. I don't even care that much about winning the scenarios, because so far they have been pretty easy. I must find out what my choices are when one of my units dings a new level. What a wonderful process of discovery! I love it!

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I will certainly link to this quote the next time someone complains about the unit discovery aspect. Veterans to the game sometimes forget how fun it can initially be to not see the whole unit tree at once.

I'm going to try again. I needed to come here for some psychological readjustment

Among the competitive circles, this is a skill known as "exp management." Two players can both be very skilled and one may win due to better experience management. So while luck definitely plays a role, you can still put it down to a difference in skill.

Recalling all your experienced units at once may not be the best approach, depending on the scenario. Think about the travelling distances involved and the amount of resistance they will encounter when they get to that point, then recruit an appropriate amount of expendable units to go along with your veterans.

[Radament]

With the gazillions of units and attacks in campaigns, it's unavoidable that you get nasty streaks of bad luck. Heck, after 3 years of playing I still encounter insane moments which are novel to me and would make a zen-buddhist want to put his head through a wall. So, yes, don't get too emotionally attached to your units - they are just the means to the end, which would be to keep your leader alive through the campaign.

As others have mentioned, make excessive use of lvl1 fodder, which will also guarantee you a constant supply of levelled/levellable units. What I usually do is to accumulate lvl2 units, and advance a choice few to lvl3. Given the high upkeep cost of the latter you can't really have lots of them running around.

Btw, units can usually survive the attacks of two units of the same level; 3 enemies, though, have a very good chance of killing you. If you stick to this rule of thumb, you will still get whacked from time to time, but in the end it does pay out.

Also, try noticing the streaks of shameless luck too

EDIT: minor stuff

[Greep]

I'm going to try again. I needed to come here for some psychological readjustment. I should not feel compelled to rely on my high level units. My recruits need to do the bulk of the fighting. My first units need to be recruits, and my high levels will come out later when I have the situation under control.

Ok, deep breath!

This is not quite ideal, especially in later scenarios or harder difficulties. Unless you're turtling, you should mostly recall higher leveled units to grab as many villages as you can. Just make sure to keep em on good terrain and keep your foot soldier types in front. I'd say, half and half recall/recruit is good, or 100% recall for extremely difficult scenarios.