Newbie's comments re. Game Manual

[dlp]

The following remarks are meant to suggest improvements I think are needed in the Manual. If anyone cares to explain things I'm unclear on, that would be welcome.

General comments:

1. Section 1.3.8 states (incorrectly) that each village controlled yields 2 gold/turn.

2. Section 2.3.2 mentions the number of "swings" a unit has, but I've found no way to determine this number.

3. A damage-calculation function is provided to assist in choosing a weapon for an attack, but I've found no guidance re. interpreting its output. The meaning of the numbers shown in the graphs are especially unclear to me.

Unit Profiles:

1. I've found no explanation for why HPs are shown as 2 numbers, i.e., x/y. Apparently, y is the max number of HPs a unit can have; x is the number it has at the moment, given damage it's received.

2. No explanation for why MPs are shown as 2 numbers. I haven't figured this one out yet.

3. Two numbers are used in describing weapons -- no explanation. My best guess is the first relates to damage inflicted when attacking and the second relates to defending, but the relationships with HPs are unclear.

4. "Ranged" and "melee" are used in connection with weapons but are undefined. (Apparently, "ranged" means no damage is suffered during attack. Haven't figured out melee yet.)

[HomerJ]

The following remarks are meant to suggest improvements I think are needed in the Manual. If anyone cares to explain things I'm unclear on, that would be welcome.

General comments:

1. Section 1.3.8 states (incorrectly) that each village controlled yields 2 gold/turn.

2. Section 2.3.2 mentions the number of "swings" a unit has, but I've found no way to determine this number.

3. A damage-calculation function is provided to assist in choosing a weapon for an attack, but I've found no guidance re. interpreting its output. The meaning of the numbers shown in the graphs are especially unclear to me.

Unit Profiles:

1. I've found no explanation for why HPs are shown as 2 numbers, i.e., x/y. Apparently, y is the max number of HPs a unit can have; x is the number it has at the moment, given damage it's received.

2. No explanation for why MPs are shown as 2 numbers. I haven't figured this one out yet.

3. Two numbers are used in describing weapons -- no explanation. My best guess is the first relates to damage inflicted when attacking and the second relates to defending, but the relationships with HPs are unclear.

4. "Ranged" and "melee" are used in connection with weapons but are undefined. (Apparently, "ranged" means no damage is suffered during attack. Haven't figured out melee yet.)

Ohoho, maybe you should have played just two hours more and you would have figured out that stuff yourself. But since we all have been new here once:

HP: current HP / max HP, but that should be obvious as this "code" is used in nearly every game that uses the HP concept.
Same with MP by the way, MP unused/MP max, also Experience Points.

3: It is Damage-Number of strikes (apparently refered to as "swings" in the english help?). Note that Damage gets de/increased by resistances.

4:I kind of understand the confusion in the ranged/melee case. Just think of it as two different approaches to attack, one in direct combat (melee) using weapons like fist, sword clubs etc. one in a shootout from a little distance using weapons like slingshots, bows javelins etc. Note that range in this case has nothing to deal with not being in adjacent hexes (!!!) as HAPMA.
So a unit needs a ranged weapon to retaliate to a ranged attack. Not so -> attacker won't receive any damage.

If this isn't enough for you, heres a hint: The Manual in thewiki.

Greetz
HomerJ

Edit: Linked to acronyms and the manual.

[Wintermute]

The following remarks are meant to suggest improvements I think are needed in the Manual. If anyone cares to explain things I'm unclear on, that would be welcome.

General comments:

1. Section 1.3.8 states (incorrectly) that each village controlled yields 2 gold/turn.

2. Section 2.3.2 mentions the number of "swings" a unit has, but I've found no way to determine this number.

3. A damage-calculation function is provided to assist in choosing a weapon for an attack, but I've found no guidance re. interpreting its output. The meaning of the numbers shown in the graphs are especially unclear to me.

1. This is the default value for multiplayer. gold per village (gpv) is often something different depending on the scenario.
2. swings are the number of strikes, or "chances to hit and inflict damage" the unit has per attack.
3. Take Stats 101, or poke around a bit on your own: You want to read about "probability" and "expected value" (Wikipedia is a good source).

Unit Profiles:
1. I've found no explanation for why HPs are shown as 2 numbers, i.e., x/y. Apparently, y is the max number of HPs a unit can have; x is the number it has at the moment, given damage it's received.

2. No explanation for why MPs are shown as 2 numbers. I haven't figured this one out yet.

3. Two numbers are used in describing weapons -- no explanation. My best guess is the first relates to damage inflicted when attacking and the second relates to defending, but the relationships with HPs are unclear.

4. "Ranged" and "melee" are used in connection with weapons but are undefined. (Apparently, "ranged" means no damage is suffered during attack. Haven't figured out melee yet.)

1 and 2. answered correctly and completely by HomerJ,
3. The second number is the number of "swings", the first is the amount of damage each swing will do (before modifications).
4. Units either attack with melee (hand to hand combat, vs the other units melee weapon), or ranged (vs the other unit's ranged weapon if they have one)

Have you played through the tutorial? That is intended to be the place for players to start if they are not the type to dive into a manual and figure things out themselves. Try playing that and see if it helps.

[dlp]

Thanks very much for these 2 helpful responses.

To clarify my experience/background: Yes, I've read the manual (I'm that type) and, indeed, my remarks concerned what I believe are points that aren't addressed in that manual but should be. For that matter, I've also read the 2 strategy guides. I've played the Tutorial and several of the TB scenarios, both at the easy and medium levels. (I play the easy version first, then try it again at medium.) Years ago, I played some paper map + cardboard units type wargames, so I came to Wesnoth with some understanding of ZOC, victory conditions, attack, defense, and movement points, and modifiers (e.g., terrain and time of day) but that's about it.

HomerJ:

I don't think the manual should assume the reader is familiar already with the current/max HP (or MP or XP) code. I wasn't. The idea of HP, MP, and XP is explained but the reasons for showing 2 numbers for each and their meanings is not. (The earned/max XP code was clear to me, though, because the manual discusses how XP is earned.)

If I understand you correctly, I was right that a ranged attack does not suffer damage during an attack, with one exception: Namely, if the defender also has a ranged weapon. So, for example, an archer attacking another archer could suffer damage. The manual should discuss these points.

Wintermute:

Section 1.3.8 states flatly that each village nets 2 gold/turn. It does not say this is true only in MP games or give any other caveats. Section 2.0, on the other hand, says 1 gold/turn. Therefore, both sections need to be edited.

WRT to the damage calculator, I gathered the bargraphs show the probability of landing different numbers of HP. But what's the relationship between the HP values and damage? For example, for a hypothetical attack, the calculator shows "Total Damage 9-4 (50%)" on the Attacker side and "3-4 (70%)" on the Defender side. Beyond understanding that this indicates what sort of damage I can expect to suffer/inflict (respectively) during that attack, I've no idea what any of these numbers mean specifically.

The case I've described involves a Dragoon attacking a Thug during daytime with both parties occupying Forest. The Dragoon has 50/51 HP and 10/95 XP and is using a 7-4 sword. The Thug has 33/33 HP and 0/34 XP and will defend with a club having 6 damage, against which the Dragoon has "*0.6" resistance.

Apparently, the Dragoon will swing 4 times and, if he lands, will inflict 7 damage each time. But how this relates to his HP and XP is not clear to me. The bargraph indicates the Thug has a 6.3% chance of suffering 33 HP during this attack. How can he suffer 33 HP from a weapon that swings 4 times with 7 damage each time it lands (4 x 7 = 28)? Again, the relationship between HP and damage is unclear. (BTW, it appears to me the calculator shows that this attack is ill-advised.)

[TL]

The bar graph shows the probabilities that the combat will end with each side having that much HP remaining. So in your example the thug has a 6.3% chance of taking no damage and staying at 33 HP.

[Turuk]

I don't think the manual should assume the reader is familiar already with the current/max HP (or MP or XP) code. I wasn't. The idea of HP, MP, and XP is explained but the reasons for showing 2 numbers for each and their meanings is not. (The earned/max XP code was clear to me, though, because the manual discusses how XP is earned.)

This should be fairly intuitive. My unit takes damage, his HP number on the left goes down, the right one never changes. Hmm, that would be remaining/max HP.

As to MP, the more hexes I move my unit, the number on the left goes down, the right one stays the same. Given again, that it is a fraction 2/7, 3/6, etc. I would say that it is the number I have remaining versus the total number given as the number on the right never changes.

If I understand you correctly, I was right that a ranged attack does not suffer damage during an attack, with one exception: Namely, if the defender also has a ranged weapon. So, for example, an archer attacking another archer could suffer damage. The manual should discuss these points.

If you attack a unit with a melee attack and it has a melee attack, you will see yourself get damage. If you attack a unit with a ranged attack, and it has a ranged attack, you might take damage as well.

If you have played both the Tutorial and the scenarios, that should be apparent. I know you are talking about them not being easily understood in the manual, but that is the purpose the Tutorial serves, to give the player visual comprehension.

The case I've described involves a Dragoon attacking a Thug during daytime with both parties occupying Forest. The Dragoon has 50/51 HP and 10/95 XP and is using a 7-4 sword. The Thug has 33/33 HP and 0/34 XP and will defend with a club having 6 damage, against which the Dragoon has "*0.6" resistance.

Apparently, the Dragoon will swing 4 times and, if he lands, will inflict 7 damage each time. But how this relates to his HP and XP is not clear to me. The bargraph indicates the Thug has a 6.3% chance of suffering 33 HP during this attack. How can he suffer 33 HP from a weapon that swings 4 times with 7 damage each time it lands (4 x 7 = 28)? Again, the relationship between HP and damage is unclear. (BTW, it appears to me the calculator shows that this attack is ill-advised.)

Well, as you will have noted in the Tutorial and scenarios you have played, the attack number and damage has nothing to do with HP or XP except after the battle is over, as you will see the remaining HP go down if any attacks have landed, and the unit gains 1XP per battle fought. Then 8XP for the winning unit if one unit kills another if the unit killed is level 1. 16XP for level 2 killed, 24XP for level 3 killed...

As to how he can suffer 33 dmg, the dragoon is a lawful unit that will hit for more than normal during the daytime as he gets the 25% bonus, so chances are he was actually hitting for 9-4, which equals 36. 36>33, so you get the percentage to kill the unit.

[Wintermute]

Wintermute:

Section 1.3.8 states flatly that each village nets 2 gold/turn. It does not say this is true only in MP games or give any other caveats. Section 2.0, on the other hand, says 1 gold/turn. Therefore, both sections need to be edited.

Yes, this should be clarified. It won't make it into the upcoming 1.6 stable version, but will be changed in 1.7. Also, I remember when I was learning the game the manual provided a nice overview, but the in-game help was also helpful (It probably would have clarified your questions about HP for example). Part of that is just the ability to see things and test them out on the fly.

[grrr]

dlp, I think you are on the right track here. Yes, I also think the mentioned battle calculation dialog could be more accessible for newcomers. Veterans can make most of the damage calculations in their head anyways, so the dialog should not be made with respect to them, but to the former.

I raised similar issues here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=23160 If you disregard the main discussion then you see I complained about the very same dialog as well.

Perhaps if you provide an alternative dialog design (photoshopped, informal description, ...) that you consider more accessible for newcomers then you might get more positive feedback.

Regarding some other replies in this thread: If you think it is fine to answer the same questions over and over again, instead of thinking whether this situation could be improved - FINE! But then please state that somewhere =p Else people like dlp will run into unneccessary stop energy again and again. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but some of your responses are less helpful than you might have thought, IMHO.

[dlp]

More helpful responses, and so quickly, too. Thanks! This is a great forum.

The bar graph shows the probabilities that the combat will end with each side having that much HP remaining. So in your example the thug has a 6.3% chance of taking no damage and staying at 33 HP.

Aha. I see the correspondence now with the Thug's 33 HP. Thank you.

This should be fairly intuitive. My unit takes damage, his HP number on the left goes down, the right one never changes. Hmm, that would be remaining/max HP.

As to MP, the more hexes I move my unit, the number on the left goes down, the right one stays the same. Given again, that it is a fraction 2/7, 3/6, etc. I would say that it is the number I have remaining versus the total number given as the number on the right never changes.

You're assuming a new player will notice the numbers changing and make the connections. I didn't. Perhaps it's because my prior experience involved paper wargames, where (obviously) unit stats don't change, so I wasn't expecting this sort of thing to be happening.

If you attack a unit with a melee attack and it has a melee attack, you will see yourself get damage. If you attack a unit with a ranged attack, and it has a ranged attack, you might take damage as well.

If you have played both the Tutorial and the scenarios, that should be apparent. I know you are talking about them not being easily understood in the manual, but that is the purpose the Tutorial serves, to give the player visual comprehension.

If it's meant to be apparent in the Tutorial, the Tutorial should call it to the player's attention. I don't recall that happening. And, yes, the subject of this thread is meant to be suggested improvements to the manual. To my way of thinking, a manual for a piece of software should provide a complete and accurate description of the software's operation. Tutorials and gameplay experience are supplements.

Well, as you will have noted in the Tutorial and scenarios you have played, the attack number and damage has nothing to do with HP or XP except after the battle is over, as you will see the remaining HP go down if any attacks have landed, and the unit gains 1XP per battle fought. Then 8XP for the winning unit if one unit kills another if the unit killed is level 1. 16XP for level 2 killed, 24XP for level 3 killed...

As to how he can suffer 33 dmg, the dragoon is a lawful unit that will hit for more than normal during the daytime as he gets the 25% bonus, so chances are he was actually hitting for 9-4, which equals 36. 36>33, so you get the percentage to kill the unit.

Well, obviously, I have not noted these things, which is why I was asking about them. So, I gather that a unit with only 1 HP would do just as much damage during battle as one with full HP, assuming it survived the battle. Thus, HP is a measure of defensive, rather than offensive, strength, which is counterintuitive to me. That is, "hit" suggests an attack to me. But, having just searched through the manual, I find that HP isn't defined (that's another change that's needed to the manual) and I simply assumed it was an offensive measure. Now I'm wondering how one knows a unit's offensive strength when deciding which ones to recruit or recall. I don't remember seeing indications of units' damage capabilities in those displays.

As for the Dragoon: Apparently, the "9-4 (50%)" that appeared on his side of the damage calculations showed what he would inflict, rather than suffer. But what about the 50%? Is this the probability that he'll inflict 36 HP?

I remember when I was learning the game the manual provided a nice overview, but the in-game help was also helpful (It probably would have clarified your questions about HP for example). Part of that is just the ability to see things and test them out on the fly.

Yes, I see now that the in-game help provides info the manual lacks. I'll study that -- thanks for the tip.

dlp, I think you are on the right track here. Yes, I also think the mentioned battle calculation dialog could be more accessible for newcomers. Veterans can make most of the damage calculations in their head anyways, so the dialog should not be made with respect to them, but to the former.

I raised similar issues here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=23160 If you disregard the main discussion then you see I complained about the very same dialog as well.

Perhaps if you provide an alternative dialog design (photoshopped, informal description, ...) that you consider more accessible for newcomers then you might get more positive feedback.

Thanks for your supportive words. I think I should understand the current design before suggesting changes to it, though! As you can probably tell from my questions, there are still some fundamentals I haven't grasped yet, but perhaps when I'm further along, I can offer to help make the edits to the manual I believe are needed. Is there a proper mechanism for doing so?

[JW]

Perhaps post examples of what you would have the manual say instead of simply saying you want it changed. That would perhaps coerce progress to be made.

/edit: missed the last sentence somehow. I say go for it.

[Turuk]

This should be fairly intuitive. My unit takes damage, his HP number on the left goes down, the right one never changes. Hmm, that would be remaining/max HP.

As to MP, the more hexes I move my unit, the number on the left goes down, the right one stays the same. Given again, that it is a fraction 2/7, 3/6, etc. I would say that it is the number I have remaining versus the total number given as the number on the right never changes.

You're assuming a new player will notice the numbers changing and make the connections. I didn't. Perhaps it's because my prior experience involved paper wargames, where (obviously) unit stats don't change, so I wasn't expecting this sort of thing to be happening.

Well, it's not like Wesnoth is the only game that uses this system, and far from it. Most games use a Remaining HP/Max HP system that spans across genres and systems, and so far users have had little problems understanding this system.

If you attack a unit with a melee attack and it has a melee attack, you will see yourself get damage. If you attack a unit with a ranged attack, and it has a ranged attack, you might take damage as well.

If you have played both the Tutorial and the scenarios, that should be apparent. I know you are talking about them not being easily understood in the manual, but that is the purpose the Tutorial serves, to give the player visual comprehension.

If it's meant to be apparent in the Tutorial, the Tutorial should call it to the player's attention. I don't recall that happening. And, yes, the subject of this thread is meant to be suggested improvements to the manual. To my way of thinking, a manual for a piece of software should provide a complete and accurate description of the software's operation. Tutorials and gameplay experience are supplements.

I highlighted the part of my post that you did not address, as playing the scenarios would reinforce that as well. Not to mention, the interface lines up the attacks across from each other, outlines what type they are in the middle, and leaves the opposing side blank if the enemy unit has no similar attack to attack back with. The tutorial is not a supplement but supposed to go hand in hand with the manual, as new players are instructed to do the tutorial upon first playing the game.

While more things could be outlined in the manual, the interface is defined to be intuitive and users do not seem to have an issue figuring it out over the past years. As JW has noted, if you feel that changes need to be made, try drafting up those changes yourself, what would be written, and where they should be placed. Well-worded and coherent coaching is never bad, but just pointing out the problem without an offering of a solution will not lead you anywhere.

Regarding some other replies in this thread: If you think it is fine to answer the same questions over and over again, instead of thinking whether this situation could be improved - FINE! But then please state that somewhere =p Else people like dlp will run into unneccessary stop energy again and again. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but some of your responses are less helpful than you might have thought, IMHO.

You have no power to tell people where or where not to post. While posts that are off-topic or misleading may be split, multiple people are free to respond as they see fit in order to give feedback on the posts made here.

[Lord_Aether]

As for the Dragoon: Apparently, the "9-4 (50%)" that appeared on his side of the damage calculations showed what he would inflict, rather than suffer. But what about the 50%? Is this the probability that he'll inflict 36 HP?

The 50% is the chance that any one of those 4 strikes actually do damage.

[voris]

I don't think the manual should assume the reader is familiar already with the current/max HP (or MP or XP) code. I wasn't. The idea of HP, MP, and XP is explained but the reasons for showing 2 numbers for each and their meanings is not. (The earned/max XP code was clear to me, though, because the manual discusses how XP is earned.)

Perhaps you should have paid a little better attention in math class then. Seriously. There is a reason this representation found everywhere...it's basic fractions.

[TL]

9-4 (50%): The dragoon gets 4 swings (chances to cause damage). Each swing has a 50% chance to succeed (this is based solely on the target's affinity for their terrain: the thug, like the average human-sized foot unit, has 50% defense in forest), and each successful swing will take 9 HP away from the thug.

Well, it's not like Wesnoth is the only game that uses this system, and far from it. Most games use a Remaining HP/Max HP system that spans across genres and systems, and so far users have had little problems understanding this system.

While it's safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of Wesnoth players will have played other video and/or computer games, I'm not sure I see why the included documentation should necessarily be written with this assumption.

And jeez, people, it's not like slashes are only ever used in Wesnoth (let alone other similar games) to denote fractional remainders. If I recall correctly the resistance tooltip for units with steadfast uses a slash to separate resistances attacking and defending, so that e.g. dwarvish guardsmen are displayed as having a blade resistance of 20%/40%. Does this mean they take half damage from blades?

[Turuk]

While it's safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of Wesnoth players will have played other video and/or computer games, I'm not sure I see why the included documentation should necessarily be written with this assumption.

Indeed, and as I noted in the rest of my post, if he wants to draft up a better explanation to include in the manual to make it easier for those who have never played another game before he is free to do so...