Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Feedback for the mainline campaign The Hammer of Thursagan.

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Giraffemonster
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Giraffemonster »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Played this on Steelclad (Normal), 1.10.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5. I had to recall quite a few veterans though.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Pretty nice. Just found it a bit odd how the peasant's begging for his life when he first meets you, but then attacks the enemy when he's got a bunch of friendly dwarves at his back.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Trying to get white mages. I only got one.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. It's pretty plain as you're fighting on just flat terrain with two neutrally aligned armies, but I found it fun to control more units after the last few scenarios. The overall atmosphere (unrelated to the actual gameplay) did a bit to enhance this too.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None, it's good enough.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A
Rubric
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Joined: December 31st, 2012, 4:31 am

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Rubric »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Easy. At this point, I'm beginning to regret that I restarted the campaign on Medium. Once I got past the hurdle of Invaders, everything is too easy now.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very well done. As others have said, Angarthing's speeches give insight into the dwarvish culture, and bring a nice dramatic impact to the whole campaign.

One nitpick: personally, I would use a capital "W" when he says "I am a Witness."

Also, I don't see any problem with Ollin's suicide run -- I think it serves a good design purpose of showcasing how dangerous the Ulfserkers are. The problem with it is that he begs for his life when you first meet him, so the suicide charge seems out of character. I would change the begging, rather than the suicide.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Hmm, nothing really.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Great. It was cool to see the Ulfserkers -- I never saw or even heard of them before. It was also fun to fight the regular dwarf units as well.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Well, the main problem is that after the great dramatic speech, and intimidating threat of the Ulfserkers, the enemy was basically a push over. The Ulfs are no match for a Lord, and in general an army of L1 dwarfs was no match for my elite cadre of L3 guys.

I'd like to see one of the Ulfserkers be a higher level, at least, and probably just more L2 or L3 enemies. This enemy really needs to be hard, to support the story line.

Also, as mentioned above, I'd probably change Ollin's initial greeting to be one of defiance, rather than begging.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No restarts or reloads. However, I lost the L1 mage after making a bad move that put him in range of an Ulfserker. I was debating whether to replay it in order to keep him alive. Also, I think I could win a replay with one less recalled unit, and either save a few gold for the next mission or start levelling up another rookie. But, I probably won't do it unless a future mission turns out to be too hard.
devavrata
Posts: 119
Joined: August 30th, 2012, 8:59 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by devavrata »

Content Feedback wrote:The Hammer of Thursagan, scenario 8.

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Easy/Medium/Hard
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, even tough the objectives change.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. The appearance of Ollin is necessary in order to develop he story - and then making him do a suicidal attack provides one of the typical closures for this kind of story. The alternative would be to have him join you, but then it would be to have a much more interesting unit.
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The enemy's got a lot of gold, so recruits about 20 units. Best way to fight this is to run for the bridge and take it before most enemy units arrive. Some will cross the river anyway in more distant places, but if you're fast you'll be able to kill them and block the bridge so you can handle the battle to your advantage.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It seems odd to me that Aiglondur party doesn't make an action as simple as taking off the mask from the dead enemies to notice what's going on.
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No
Content Feedback wrote:(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
-
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Chief_Chasso
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Chief_Chasso »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?: Easy, 1.11.15
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10): 5
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?: Very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?: Very clear. The dialog was great.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?: None really. Once I secured the bridge/river front, I was able to easily defeat the enemy units.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10): 7
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?: It was pretty fun as is. I think giving the player two almost leveled mages is too generous.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?: No.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?: Didn't check.
SP Campaign: Rally For Roanic
Violet-n-red
Posts: 49
Joined: June 27th, 2015, 2:38 pm

Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Violet-n-red »

Ollin is plain suicidal, why did we even started fighting for him :c pls do something with him.

great campaig so far.
Violet-n-red
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Violet-n-red »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
normal, 1.12.2, enough gold to recall two waves of veterans
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 i had enough levelled guardians to be able to take several shots during enemy turn and be abel to retaliate with all my forces on the field on my turn afterwards, that made it easy.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
perfectly clear, although i was worried for that silly villager.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
perfect.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
i wanted to save the dude, but seeing how he simply charges three berserks with only a pitchfork and a straw hat. other than that - none. i did not even had to try to ohard to protect my low-health fighters from oneshots because my stalwarts were so amazing at defending.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. just the way i like it, although a bit too easy with all my levelled dwarfs.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
make villager disappear of make him run away or at least not towards the enemy? maybe even add him to player's recall list if he survives this scenario.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
nope.

Ollin is plain suicidal, why did we even started fighting for him :c pls do something with him.
great campaig so far.
also, some fun things: that freezing fire mage dude was able to smack one berserker to death. scout is able to do the same with moral support from our loremaster.
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Inky
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Inky »

(1) Level and version? Hard (Lord), 1.12.4, 220 starting gold
(2) Difficult? (1-10) 8, pretty hard (if you're like me and went mass mages)
(3) Objectives? Clear.
(4) Dialog? Angarthing does not need to repeat "I am a witness" so much! In addition, it does not need to be in all caps, as it makes it sound rather childish. Also, when you defeat the leader Aiglondur says "They are defeated" without punctuation at the end of the sentence.
(5) Challenges? Leveling mages. I recruited 4 mages - not recommended! I ended with a white mage, 2 red mages, an almost leveling mage and a half-leveled mage though so I consider it a success!
(6) Fun? (1-10) 7
(7) Changes? Seems fine.
(8) Restarts? None.
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Aldarisvet
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Aldarisvet »

It is possible to pass this scenario at Hard recruiting mages only (one exception I made for the Gryphon Rider).
Surprisingly it appeared to be very effective decision. Under loremaster's Inspire they attacking 9-3 even at night. Carefully moving mages and the loremaster you can reach the effect that at the every turn almost all mages are attacking under Inspire.
Of course there would be casualties, I lost 2 mages, but others got lot of experience. What is also important, that mages costs much less in support then level3 veteran dwarves, so you will get more money at the end.
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revolting_peasant
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by revolting_peasant »

I'm playing the level right now, and I'm having a dilemma regarding who should have the staff of righteousness. On one hand, Ratheln is likely to be the one who uses it the most, since he's hardy enough to put on the front lines and he spawns automatically without a recall. On the other hand, I might lose him later in the campaign, which would make giving him the staff a waste. Also, White Mages get a +40% arcane resistance from it rather than a measely 20%... so maybe it should be a White Mage. Then again, Whites usually stay behind the front lines, to heal and illuminate. What would you advise? Also, am I going to lose Ratheln later somehow?
Linthar
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by Linthar »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Hard 1.13.13

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Pretty interesting for the most part. But Ollin's role makes no sense. He's hiding from the masked dwarves at the start and clearly afraid of them. So it doesn't make much sense that when a friendly army arrives and engages the masked dwarves that he'll make a suicidal charge at them, and due to being a faster mover attack the enemies he was so afraid of a few minutes ago before any help can arrive.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The rate at which the enemy recruited units. Level 1 dwarves aren't much of a threat, but I nearly ran out of time trying to fight my way through the never ending flood of them to get to the enemy leader.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. Gameplay wise it doesn't stand out to much.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Adjust Ollin's role to be a little less confusing. Either have him exit the map after his dialogue or put him under the player's control as a loyal unit. I'd prefer the later. A single loyal peasant isn't going to disrupt the campaigns balance to much, while giving players willing to put the effort to babysit him enough to level him up a chance to add a little more variety to their unit roster.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
LordWolfDan
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by LordWolfDan »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Easy

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Clear, get rid of the enemy leader

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Pretty good. The revelation of the main enemies (masked dwarves) surprised me as I thought I'd have to deal with bandits. "I'M A WITNESS!" could have been a meme if this game has been better known. All in all, I love this scenario

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Staying the hell away from the ulfsekers!!

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- Make it that Ollin becomes your loyal ally and if possible, he joins you for the rest of the campaign

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

- None
Konrad2
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 5 - Fear

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.1, Challenging (Lord)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Very interesting and clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Keeping my units alive despite having to move them around the whole time.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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supperman
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by supperman »

Content Feedback wrote: March 10th, 2008, 11:08 pm (1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Challenging 1.12.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7. You need to place units carefully, especially before you have picked of the ulfserkers with your lords.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine, though I don't understand the peasant's suicidal charge.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Finding units that aren't too wounded to attack.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1, mainly because of the suicidal peasant.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Let player control the peasant, or make him hide somewhere. Otherwise I think this is good as is.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Can't remember. Stupid moves probably.
mal_shubertal
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.16.6 Lord (Challenging)
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear enough. They didn't exactly spell out 'move a unit onto each village and burned village until the orc leader pops out', but I figured it out quickly from trial and error.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's clear that this campaign has been massively rearranged since the last time I played it. This scenario used to come much later and be much different because you had mages and were fighting the masked dwarves, and it had the super dramatic "I AM A WITNESS" line which I liked a lot. So I'm very much hoping that that line still happens later, because it was a real high point of this campaign. I like the way the tension and suspicion continues to mount between movrur and angarthing, and you are now coming up on the twist that the masked dwarves are the 'bad guys', but the player is left to still wonder if movrur is one of them, or if he's somehow not aware he's on the wrong side. It also creates an interesting meta-gaming tension since the player doesn't know whether they're 'wasting' the xp they're putting into movrur if he's just going to betray them later. I very much hope not, but the mystery definitely draws me into the story!
Also, the dwarvish accent/dialect continues to be all over the place. The masked dwarves talk in an interesting idiosyncratic way at the start, "quiet dirtgrubber, ye'll no cry for help...else I'll torture yer family ta death bef're yer eyes". Then later they drop into some quasi-scottish dialect like 'aye', and then some mix between more formal and more 'uneducated' grammar like "we haven't the forces to root out them orcs". But it's all mixed together and changes from one moment to the next, even just very simple stuff like saying either 'you' or 'ye'. Obviously, I get that all this stuff is written piecemeal by lots of volunteers (which I appreciate, thank you all for this game, I love it!), this is just one of those spots where it is just super clear that the different bits of dialogue were written by different people, and someone needs to go over it and smooth it out so that each character/culture has a consistent 'voice'.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Picking the right mix of units. Since you don't know what units you're fighting until they pop out, it's possible to recruit wrong, or spread your forces too thin and get overwhelmed.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. It's an interesting concept, for sure, but it got a little dull just clustering around each village in turn and farming xp. The player has perhaps TOO MUCH control over the pacing, there's no sense of urgency other than the meta-game consideration of trying to maximize carryover gold.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make your allied units behave a little more helpfully. as it is, they will respond to any enemy that is in their movement range, but they won't go even a single space out of their way toward the next battle. I guess this could be explained by the fog, or just the peasants being super un-motivated, but it's pretty unintuitive and unnatural AI ally behavior. It might make the pacing of the scenario a little better if you had the masked dwarves independently move around the map and trigger the ambushes on their own, and then you would have to decide whether to just let them get crushed or race around trying to save their bacon. It would match the story more, since it says they were in the middle of searching for the orcs before you arrived, so it doesn't make much sense for them to just sit around passively as you search every village.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I restarted a couple times to change my recruitment or search pattern after I got an idea of how many units of what strengths spawned from each village.
EDIT: I got stuck on Forbidden Forest and replayed several scenarios, including this one, to be better prepared for that one. So I'm including my second replay of this scenario, where I was obviously much more focused because I already knew exactly where the enemy leader was.
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JL42
Posts: 66
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 8 - Fear

Post by JL42 »

What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
v. 1.16.10
Lord / Challenging
How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3
How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kind of murky. The objective is simply to "find the orcs." The player will see them jumping out of villages soon enough – because capturing villages is always the first thing you do – but what is really confusing is that you have to eventually find the ones that are hiding in the burned-out houses, and there's really no clear reason at all to visit those tiles. The only reason I figured out what to do is because I read the walkthrough. I can see a player getting to the end, having occupied all the villages and killed all the orcs in them, and then just wondering "OK, now what?" as time runs out.

Meanwhile, all the peasants and masked dwarves on the map just stand around staring vacantly into space and doing absolutely nothing unless an enemy comes into their movement range. This makes the map feel weirdly static. Maybe we should simply ask the peasants where the orcs are?

Also, time seems to be stuck at midnight on this map for some reason, and that is never mentioned or explained. The player doesn't know what to expect in terms of daylight. Maybe at least some kind of dialogue like, "we have to find the orc leader before the sun rises."
How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Completely confusing. The writing is still reasonably good, but I don't understand the logic of this map at all. There are hints that the masked dwarves have some kind of "project" going on with the peasants, who are clearly terrified ... but what that project is, or anything else about what is going on here, is never explained anywhere in the campaign. It's suggested here, and throughout the previous scenarios, that the masked dwarves are working with the orcs somehow, presumably as part of this "project," and paying them for it, but never anywhere in the campaign do we learn what exactly is happening with the orcs. Unless I just totally missed it somewhere. It's hard to believe that Aiglondur doesn't have the good sense to pull one of those peasants aside and ask some questions about what is going on. The player wants to know too.

To make matters even more confusing, when we defeat the orc leader Movrur has a speech in which he chastises them for preying on helpless peasants etc., and the orcs don't say anything like, "you paid us to do it, what are you talking about." Then, in the next scenario the orcs are actually attacking Kal Kartha, which makes it seem like they were never actually allies in the first place.

If Movrur and the other masked dwarves are allied with the orcs, why didn't they turn on us now when they have the chance, in order to preserve their mysterious "project"?

This is all just really baffling, and combined with the clunky gameplay in this scenario it just makes me feel like the campaign revision has been left unfinished or something. Plus, we miss out on some really awesome events and dialogues from the earlier version, where previously we discovered the masked dwarves with whips and shackles to enslave the peasants, and Angarthing declares them to be acting without honor and casts them out from dwarvendom etc. All of that made for a tremendously better and more compelling and logical story, and I don't understand why it has been removed in favor of the current oddity.
What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not a lot here in terms of gameplay challenges; the enemies are only level 1 and 2 and they come just a few at a time. (The difficulty of the various scenarios in the campaign has become wildly inconsistent.) The biggest challenge is just figuring out what to do because the map is very awkward and doesn't make much sense.

On top of everything mentioned above, another irritating dynamic is that ally units will sometimes move into one of the unoccupied villages to heal, and then they just camp out there forever, preventing the player from ever taking that village or fighting the orcs in it (or using it to heal our own units). I started over several times out of annoyance with this dynamic.
How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2
What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Need to completely re-do this scenario, both gameplay and dialogue, to fix the issues noted above. Or better, just revert to the previous version, which was awesome and engaging.

This current map seems like kind of a merger of the original "Fear" scenario with the other deleted previous map that had bandits jumping out of villages. But that other bandit map was much more interesting and well-done, a really cool multi-way battle in which the bandits attacked both you and the orcs as you sparred over the villages. And it actually made logical sense because in the prior version there wasn't all this confusion about Movrur, and the orcs maybe working with the dwarves, and so forth. The current campaign throughout this section is just a huge confusing mess and needs to be reworked or reverted.

---------------
About the Overall Campaign:

This campaign has deteriorated a bit since the last time I played. Which sucks, because it used to be one of the absolute best. There are still some very strong points – particularly in the last few scenarios (I'm agnostic about the changes to the final map; both versions of that one are good) – and the core strength of the writing continues to carry it. I love how the story develops the heathen culture of the dwarves and their sense of honor etc. However, it desperately needs some work, or restoration, around the middle of the campaign to resolve the confusing events, logical lapses, and frustrating gameplay that have been introduced. I really dislike the addition of the character Movrur, who is not as strong in the writing and kind of ruins the mystery and sense of exploration and adventure that drove the original campaign. In addition to having less mystery and tension, the story is now very confusing and illogical in places, and the maps around scenarios 3–5 are much less enjoyable than previous versions. This used to be one of my favorite campaigns in Wesnoth, five out of five, full marks, but I can't really say that anymore. I'll give it 3 out of 5 stars for the current version, and that is generous based on the lingering writing strength and still having a few solid maps. Would really, really love to see this campaign developed or restored a bit to bring it back to where it could be.
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