Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Feedback for the mainline campaign The Hammer of Thursagan.

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Konrad2
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 4 - High Pass

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.1, Challenging (Lord)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

1 (see (5))

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Interesting and clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None. The scenario doesn't work right now.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

1 (see (5))

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Fix it.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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supperman
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by supperman »

Content Feedback wrote: March 10th, 2008, 10:58 pm (1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Challenging on 1.12.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 - Hardest in the campaign. I managed to do it after multiple tries because I happened to have multiple veterans close to leveling.
I also got lucky with the thunderguard, which soon leveled into dragonguard. I don't know how else I would have gotten rid of all wolves blocking the way.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Getting through was clear, but the hut with the mage isn't marked anyhow.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Number of enemies blocking the way.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. It's only about trying to get through the enemies before time runs out.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Enemy spawns should be less random. Instead of creating new enemies in the middle of the map, put a flock of wolves in each corner of the map from the beginning. They will reach the player at different times, so random spawns aren't needed. Also all ogres and gryphons should be on the map from the beginning. Just make sure they don't all meet the player at once. If you think there isn't enough action toward the end, make more enemies spawn at *the edge* of the map at some point.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Running out of time, a hero getting surrounded and killed while trying to reach the signpost in time.
Losing the loyal gryphon I didn't recall in latter tries.
JTamas
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by JTamas »

I think this scenario was replaced (end possibly reworked)? It was scenario 4 in my campaign, if I recall correctly.

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Medium, 1.15.15

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4. Easy scenario to level some units.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

I don't think there was much story/dialog.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

At one time, the enemy units that pop up in random places on this scenario trapped my leader. I could only get away by luck.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7. I found it fun to fight with my dwarves in the mountains.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Some dialogue could be added the first time the random units appear.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
KK188
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by KK188 »

What a dumb scenario. Who designed it so that enemies spawn right next to your units, in good terrain, just to block your path. If this stupid spawning mechanic is to be kept, remove the griffins at least.
mcbanhas
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by mcbanhas »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.16.1, Normal (Steelclad)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Interesting and clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

As of the latest revision this scenario appears to be unwinnable on normal difficulty unless you bring a very good carryover. This mission used to be lvl 5 instead of lvl 3 on previous revisions and my impression is that the difficulty wasn't really well accounted for this. The enemy frequently spawns very strong lvl 2 units (ogres, trolls) which are meaty and deal a lot of damage, and are supported by highly mobile flyers and skirmisher units (gryphons, wolves) which can very easily exploit weaknesses from the back or prevent any attempts from escape from the rear or sides. Dwarvish units excel in solid defensive lines, but are slow moving and difficult to maneuver which makes them very vulnerable to this sort of arrangement. The escort mission element doesn't help at all, since the constantly spawning enemy waves turn any forward push into a hopeless crawl. Moving through the forest is not a viable option either, given all enemy units have a defence advantage over yours in this environment and the gryphons can easily intercept a forward moving group. All in all, this scenario feels like nothing less than a perfect trap for your army.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

2

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Fixing this mission can be done in many ways, but I feel campaign framing must be considered first and foremost. The most important thing to be taken into account is that this is an intermediate level campaign, meaning that ideally, when played in normal difficulty, it should give the player some challenge without feeling overly taxing or dragging. If not cleared on the 1st try a fitting strategy should be able to be developed by the average player on no more than 2 tries. It should not require any amount or specific-type of carryovers to complete the mission smoothly, although having them would be preferable. As such my suggestions are as follows:
1- The easiest way is to keep the current layout while reducing the number of enemy spawns and change some of the enemy types. Avoid deploying lvl 2 hard hitters from the start and spawn level 1s instead, with a larger lvl 2 boss blocking the end of the road. Gryphons should be limited in number instead of infinitely spawning. Wolves would perhaps be a better fitting main opponent which could be explained in the scenario's plot (the group unknowingly crosses the territory of an aggressive wolf pack).
2 - Given this is only the third mission following two large engagements, perhaps an overhaul shouldn't be taken out of the picture. Having this become a quest-type mission with multiple branching paths, could prove to be a good chance to level up your heroes and a small select group of veteran troops. There could be special triggers, checkpoints for spawning reinforcements and even money/xp bonuses hidden along the way. A nice change of pace to an otherwise battle-heavy campaign.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Yes. The large amount of enemy spawns and disposition as described above. I wasn't able to clear the mission after trying multiple tactics and unit combinations. Rewinding turns or having a plenty of high level carryovers might be the only way to clear it unless I am missing something. Conversely, I was able to clear the prior two missions on the first try and without rewinding, losing only a single unit in lvl 2 and none in lvl1.
mcbanhas
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by mcbanhas »

An update on my previous post: after one more try I finally managed to beat this mission on one sitting by spacing unit recruitments and slowly pushing forward between enemy waves. It was still a very tight victory, with all enemies cleared only by turn 17, meaning my hero, who was at that point in the middle of the map, was only able to reach the signpost precisely on turn 20. This mission feels like a sharp jump on difficulty and the required macro strategy does not become clear as quickly as in prior missions. I think that having one less wave of ogres/trolls, properly spaced, would make it a lot more fitting for normal difficulty.
Nobody_III
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by Nobody_III »

What happened to the mage Ratheln? I've repeatedly tried to get him, and his name is in some of the data files, but not in

Code: Select all

04_High_Pass.cfg
at all, and I couldn't find any triggers to spawn him in any other scenarios either.
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

That's cause the in the revision of THoT, this character no longer exists.
Creator of "War of Legends"
Creator of the Isle of Mists survival scenario.
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egallager
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by egallager »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: March 31st, 2022, 5:35 am That's cause the in the revision of THoT, this character no longer exists.
Why was he removed?
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

egallager wrote: April 16th, 2022, 5:51 am
Lord-Knightmare wrote: March 31st, 2022, 5:35 am That's cause the in the revision of THoT, this character no longer exists.
Why was he removed?
I don't know. Ask the Project Council's SP Content In-Charge.
Creator of "War of Legends"
Creator of the Isle of Mists survival scenario.
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mal_shubertal
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
1.16.6 Lord Challenging
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very. I like that the signpost is flashed at the beginning to you have an idea of where you're headed.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
clear. It's fine, kind of a change of pace scenario. I like the slow character development of the tension between Angarthing and Movrur over each scenario.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
A LOT of level 2 enemies, and especially the very mobile griffins, so I had to lose SEVERAL level 2 units. I think I still came out ok, but it was pretty punishing. I'm kind of banking on this only being an intermediate level campaign so that I can recover from these losses.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. A nice change of pace, and the unusual enemy unit mix made you think very hard about your movement every turn. The terrain being a mix of frozen forests and non-frozen mountains makes the player think hard about the unique ways that dwarves interact with the terrain differently than other factions.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I still think that Movrur and Angarthing should speak in at least somewhat different dialects/speech patterns, like the two orc leaders spoke differently in the last scenario. It would highlight the cultural differences between the Alliance and non-Alliance dwarves.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No, but I did lose a significant number of level 2 units, so if I play the next scenario and find out that I'm too weak, I might have to come back and replay this one more carefully.
EDIT: I got VERY stuck on Forbidden Forest, so I did indeed go back and replay several scenarios, including this one, to get Angarthing to level 3 earlier and have a stronger group of level 3 units for that scenario. I'll add the better playthrough as well. My main difference was that I recruited almost 100% dwarvish fighters and almost no ranged units. The combination of slow, smart use of terrain, and a lot of expandable fodder units with good resistances meant that was able to come out of the scenario with several lvl 3 dwarves and lvl 3 Angarthing. I also stuck around for an extra turn or 2 at the end to farm a little extra xp once I had claimed most villages, and I was sure to take out the griffin leader earlier.
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JL42
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Re: Scenario Review: THoT 6 - High Pass

Post by JL42 »

What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
v. 1.16.10
Lord / Challenging
How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2
How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Not much dialogue; it was fine.
What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
This one is drastically easier than the previous two scenarios; not much in the way of challenges. You have unpredictably appearing enemies but they are relatively weak and few in numbers, and now you can finally get the dwarves into the mountains where they become nearly invincible. There's also plenty of villages here, so when units get moderately injured they can hang out and heal so that they don't get too low on HP.

The only problem I can see coming up is if the player arrives here without sufficiently leveled units, since it is only the third scenario. However, if you don't have a good number of level 2 units by now (which makes this map easy) then there's no way you're going to get through the upcoming scenarios anyway. The problem here is that several XP-building scenarios have been removed from the campaign, so it's easy for people to get behind. I've seen several commenters say that the previous two scenarios were easy and this one is hard – which is the opposite of my impression – and the only thing I can figure out is that they must not have been concerned with preserving and leveling some troops during those earlier scenarios.

I think the "High Pass" has been toned down from the previous version, where the timer was a lot shorter and you had to rush forward quickly along the path while trying to just fend off attacks from the flanks and rear. For me, the previous version was more of a challenge, but also more fun.
How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5
What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Nothing major that I can think of. Maybe reduce the timer again, or add some more enemies to make it more difficult. Really need to have another scenario or two before this one though, to make sure that the player has built up enough of a level-2 army to handle this map.

---------------
About the Overall Campaign:

This campaign has deteriorated a bit since the last time I played. Which sucks, because it used to be one of the absolute best. There are still some very strong points – particularly in the last few scenarios (I'm agnostic about the changes to the final map; both versions of that one are good) – and the core strength of the writing continues to carry it. I love how the story develops the heathen culture of the dwarves and their sense of honor etc. However, it desperately needs some work, or restoration, around the middle of the campaign to resolve the confusing events, logical lapses, and frustrating gameplay that have been introduced. I really dislike the addition of the character Movrur, who is not as strong in the writing and kind of ruins the mystery and sense of exploration and adventure that drove the original campaign. In addition to having less mystery and tension, the story is now very confusing and illogical in places, and the maps around scenarios 3–5 are much less enjoyable than previous versions. This used to be one of my favorite campaigns in Wesnoth, five out of five, full marks, but I can't really say that anymore. I'll give it 3 out of 5 stars for the current version, and that is generous based on the lingering writing strength and still having a few solid maps. Would really, really love to see this campaign developed or restored a bit to bring it back to where it could be.
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