Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Feedback for the game tutorial.

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nuorc
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by nuorc »

Continued from: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 26#p537726

I like this part II, and I believe it's the first time I ever played it. It shows an actual battlefield situation and teaches a lot of important aspects. However, there are some things I think could be improved:

Orders are often 1 action (1 hex) late (off):
- can't move shammie next to archer, though I'm ordered to
- can't cancel shammie-attack after the cancel order
- the hint to level my unit instead of letting it die came actually after it leveled

The line about "healers only able to heal 4 hp" struck me as being wrong in this general wording, better would be sth like "your healers..."

One thing that could be added is "Show Enemy Move" / Strg+V, that would also be an opportunity to introduce the Actions menu.

Overall, good work! (Keep it up when revising. :P )
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Wesnoth_Tutorial_Part_II_replay.gz
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Remellion
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Remellion »

I have had the good fortune to be able to introduce Wesnoth to a friend recently, so here is some feedback on the tutorial. It was done in French, which is neither of our main languages (don't ask why), but we understand it passably well. My friend has played the Civilisation series of games before, so is familiar with some turn-based strategy.

I mostly let him control it himself, pointing out only a few occasional tips to complement the hints and text, and if I saw something particularly wrong like trying to melee the full hp orcish leader from flat with a fighter.

Points that trip up a new player:
- Notice at the start of turn 2 Li'sar captures a village, before attacking the orc. This causes the instruction to recruit more troops at the end of the turn to be unattainable. (This was a result of the tutorial instructing the player to capture villages at the end of the previous turn - indeed, he remembered well the instruction.) An explanation of why the undo is not available after attacking would be good too.
- Notice on turn 2 the elvish archer attacks the orcish grunt from the water, despite Galdrad advising to undo. This is because the order was given as a "move and attack" and there was no time to undo after the message. This is opposed to moving the unit to the hex, then giving the unit instruction to attack after moving, which the tutorial assumes. Design flaw?
- The idea of a multi-turn move was confusing when first introduced - he simply wanted to move the unit once on each turn instead of giving one order to move to the village over 2 turns. Not really important, but hey.
- As noted, at the end of turn 2, recruitment was not possible because Li'sar had already moved. The prompts to move Li'sar also become desynched with the actual game state.
- ZoC is a concept familiar from the Civ series, so my friend got that immediately.
- The idea that orcish units could cross the (shallow) water at the east edge was not noticed by my friend until some turns later, even with Galdrad's suggestion to send the eastern fighter down south.
- In the middle of the battle on the island, my friend asked "Is there no way for 2 units to swap positions?" Well no, except by moving one at a time, working around ZoC and terrain. Not a problem, just an interesting remark.
- Around turn 9 or 10 he realised the orcs were crossing. Not a severe problem.
- The idea that villages are good stuck. Notice from turns 10-14 the elvish archer swung round to capture villages south.
- As seen in the replay when attacking the orc leader, the idea of using advantageous terrain is not completely clear for a beginner. Also, he forgot archers could melee and fighters had a bow until I reminded him.
- He wanted also to bring Li'sar to the front lines to boost troop morale. I took some time to explain the leadership ability then. (With Galdrad as a convenient example.) Is this common in other turn-based strategy games?
- I suggested using the shaman to slow enemies twice. RNG seems to hate my attempts to show the power of slowing.
- The hints that popped up from time to time, were "so random".

Points I noticed as a Wesnoth player:
- The other effect of slowing (ralentissement), that is to reduce enemy movement, is not explained.
- The concept of movement points and terrain movement cost is not dealt with clearly.
- The hints that popped up from time to time, are indeed very random. They should be tied to something... I dunno. The triggers for events seem strange, it's easy to get an instruction and be unable to comply. Odd for a tutorial, but a problem that's been around since forever.
- Unfortunate that both close-to-levelling archers died. It would have been cooler for my friend to see a level 2 unit to control.
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

I originally played the tutorial back on 1.8
I played again recently on 1.12.5 & on 1.13.2+dev @ 2016-01-13
My comments and attached replay are for the 1.13.2+dev version

The dialog & explanition improvements between 1.12.5 & 1.13.2+dev are not as dramatic as part 1 was, but it is a bit more polished than the older version
I like how the traits explanation was moved to part 1. Also that there is dialog to handle advanced units.

As far as playing the tutorial:
On turn 4, I realized I couldn't seize the island village without heavy losses due to the wolf riders and nightfall, so I fell back to the river bank to meet the orcs there. If the goal is to allow the player to seize & defend the island for the initial wave, it seems that there's too high of a possibility of things playing out to make that difficult.

Some additional things I think would be good for new players to be introduced to would be the benefits of the Menu sections: Statistics, Unit List, & Status Table. However, I'm not sure if the best place would be here. Perhaps as part of The South Guard campaign might be better for some/all of them.
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nuorc
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by nuorc »

As said before, trying to watch my old replays or SigurdFireDragon's with the current stable version of BfW didn't work, so I made some with 1.12.5:
Wesnoth_Tutorial_Part_II_replay.gz
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Another 2 cents:

I believe

Code: Select all

‘Strong’ means a unit does more damage
should be

Code: Select all

‘Strong’ means a unit does more melee damage
Having a dexterous unit is not possible?


I think

Code: Select all

‘Quick’ means a unit can move one tile further each turn
is incorrect, or imprecise at best; a quick unit has one more MP and might move one more hex (depending on terrain). I think that same tip also occasionally shows up on the title screen and might also be revised.


And still:
nuorc wrote:- the hint to level my unit instead of letting it die came actually after it leveled

The line about "healers only able to heal 4 hp" struck me as being wrong in this general wording, better would be sth like "your healers..."

One thing that could be added is "Show Enemy Move" / Strg+V, that would also be an opportunity to introduce the Actions menu.

Overall, good work! (Keep it up when revising. :P )
I have a cunning plan.

Hestelvar
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Hestelvar »

1.13.4

This part of the tutorial offers an good demonstration of in-game mechanics. I particularly enjoyed the map’s varied strategic possibilities.
However Galdrad only discusses two of these; attacking via the ford or the bridge. He fails to mention waiting on the north bank for the orcs. This admittedly unheroic strategy would be my choice if I encountered this scenario in a campaign.
Galdrad’s instructions are to capture the village on the island immediately, thereby engaging the orcs at night! A baptism of fire that makes the scenario harder than necessary and risks giving beginners an inflated sense of villages importance.

Perhaps outline all strategies and leave the decision to Konrad/Li'sar. Alternatively this could be resolved by substituting the village for say - an imprisoned elf who will be executed if not rescued in time - or enlarge the island to accommodate several villages thereby granting it strategic significance.

Difficult out of 10?
Wait for orcs on the north bank 4.
Meet orcs on the island at night 7.

I liked how newly levelled units made little speeches outlining there enhanced capabilities, but their claimed attack stats became slightly inaccurate if the unit was strong or dexterous.

Give the orc leader something to say.
Either instructive eg. “Lads! If those cursed elves try to capture our island this night we’ll make em bleed.”
Or upon death eg. “I die, but my kin will avenge me. This land shall be ours! This is only the beginning.”

As a final idea I feel beginners would benefit from a longer tutorial (in addition to The South Guard) with extra scenarios to introduce important tools like the Status Table.
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devavrata
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by devavrata »

I played this tutorial after the rest of the game (i don't recall the tutorial being present the first time I played Wesnoth - anyway, that was years ago), so I can't truly judge how good it is at teaching, but I feel the basic mechanics of the game are well introduced, and the guidance to the player is well provided by marking the places where the player should make actions.
Part II does also introduce the cycle night/day and some other features, so the player gets to know everything that is needed to start playing.

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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by TheCatLord »

Since I'm fond of Elvish Shamans and very good at advancing them, I've disappointed that there's no dialogue for them levelling up. As such, I've come up with some suggestions for that. I did my best to keep them short and simple like the other advancement dialogues while still illustrating the key points (the Druid is primarily a stronger healer while the Sorceress is more suited for fighting). I hope you find them helpful.

For druids:
"Advancing a level has fully healed me!
I heal units around me by 8 hitpoints per turn. as if they were in a village."

For sorceresses:
"Advancing a level has fully healed me!
Instead of healing, I have a powerful faerie fire attack, and I always have a 70% chance to hit with my Magical ability. Use me to weaken tough or hard-to-hit units."

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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Konrad2 »

I've noticed something about the warning regarding standing in shallow water. It is only triggered by 9 hexes. As long as I avoid those 9 hexes and instead only move in the other shallow water hexes, I won't be warned at all.
Wesnoth Tutorial — Part II Turn 7.gz
Marked them all.
(31.76 KiB) Downloaded 365 times
There is also no warning about moving into swamps. (which should be added, right?)

EDIT: There is also a lack of explanations about units that advance further than lvl2. I mean, sure, it's not very likely to happen, but still...
And recalling a lvl2 unit does not trigger the explanation about it. (No explantion when you lvl up a unit in Part 1...but that's the wrong thread for it.)
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Wesnoth Tutorial — Part II-Auto-Save1.gz
Have fun recalling.
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Mawmoocn
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Mawmoocn »

I’ll try to keep it short. Sorry it’s long or it won’t make sense.

Application of counterattack on tutorial 2 is quite beneficial for wounding enemy troops.

It will be reviewed based on the replays I did to give some depth on how it would’ve been without skipping turns and counterattack.

To be clear on my definition of counterattack, it doesn’t mean about the enemy attacking you, it’s about you/the enemy dealing damage when, the enemy/I inevitably attacks you! So if I/enemy attacks the enemy/me and they/I can retaliate, that’s what I call counterattack!

Fighter and Archer replay (1.12.6)
Turn:
  1. Moved Konrad to a position that allows to corner the Grunt when it automatically moves.
    1. Konrad was able to successfully go behind the Grunt!
    2. Grunt moved away even while being surrounded by 3 units. :lol:
  2. I was planning to feed the Grunt’s experience on my other units but failed.
    1. Golir (Fighter) was positioned to damage other units in counterattack.
    2. Golir survived!
  3. Retreated Golir and positioned Elriend (Archer) on the patch of forest.
  4. To ensure Elriend and Elindel (Fighter) doesn’t die, I took a chance on putting Konrad on Dirt (flat terrain) because levelling him would not provide an upgrade.
    1. Konrad survived and the hunch paid off! Now I can (probably) safely manage this turn.
    2. Goblin Riders nearly killed Elriend, good thing he was on full hit points before it happened!
  5. Time to kill them all! MUHAHAHAHAHA!
  6. Goodbye Ruol! (Goblin Rider) I will now proceed to assasinate attack Thrag! (Leader)
  7. Nothing unusual, just archers chasing an orc.
  8. Thrag didn’t retreat to a village, bye bye! Elindel power level up to a Hero!


Shaman replay (1.14.8 / 1.14.7)
Turn:
  1. (Galdrad) Nice mention of being fond of Shaman. :lol:
  2. I positioned myself to bait Orc.
  3. Attack! Nice Zone of Control graphics!
  4. I didn’t position my only shaman on the village, because it’ll be hard to dislodge the archer if it had gone to the patch of forest....
    1. I was trying to remove focus on the Shaman at x10 y14, because a potential maximum of 4 units would attack her, so I baited Li’sar.

      Shouldn’t have risked Li’sar at this turn, but even if I use a weaker shaman, the AI loves to swarm one unit to kill them and they ignore baits that are at full hit points. Most beginners are oblivious to this info.

      (I did restart replaying at least one time because of this, though I could continue without that shaman.)
    2. Here Orcish Archer wasn’t lucky to damage me enough but the Grunt was one hit away from killing Li’sar! She survived though.

      Mënya (Shaman) got wounded. The risk paid off as there’re no fatalities!
    1. Can’t allow an archer to move up so I had to position a shaman on the flat terrain and didn’t slow (attack) because attacking may damage me more than just skipping to attack (there would be no chance of death due to the shaman having greater HP than the archer’s maximum damage).
    2. Mënya was attacked by an Archer which could damage her enough, thankfully slow activated before it happened and the rider can’t kill her.

      If she had a strong trait, if she killed the rider, she would be exposed to another archer that has high likelihood to kill.
    1. Galdrad wrote:Beware of those orcs crossing the river! If they get into the forest they’ll be hard to dislodge!
      Wrong target, no orcs because all my units are “weak” in damage and they decided to go all to the bridge....

      I also retreated some units and attacked.
    2. Sorima (Shaman) could die because those 3 enemies that can deal a maximum of 54 damage (37.8 with CTH) or 42 (29.4 with CTH) with slow. Thankfully slow activated on counterattack, she lived!
    1. It’s already daytime! time to be reckless! Since other shamans are blocked, from the village, Mënya had to return on that patch of forest, otherwise, Sorima would die.
    2. Nowinna (Shaman) killed a Grunt on counterattack, therefore when an archer attacked her, she could die if slow attack didn’t hit.
    1. Attack here and slowed there, placed Li’sar on dirt (flat terrain), as she would be near to level up. Mënya had to stay on her position as I can’t use my other units...
    2. 3 units attacked Mënya again, being on the brink of death for the nth time... thankfully she survived!
  5. Sorima wrote:Advancing a level has fully healed me! I cannot heal adjacent units anymore, but to compensate, I have a new, powerful faerie fire attack that deals 7 damage each for 4 strikes. It also has the magical weapon special, meaning it always has a 70% chance to hit.
    Sorima got lucky and finally leveled up! but she’s a dexterous unit, therefore ....
  6. Nothing unusual, attack here and there slow here and there.
    1. I got bored so I did the stupid and attacked using Li’sar that would die if my foe got lucky.... well because you can’t undo once the orc leader dialog showed up, that’s what would happen if I didn’t have a shaman nearby. Thankfully my shaman is nearby!
    2. Goblin Rider attacked Li’sar and she has now healed! (because I skipped attacking).

      But another rider didn’t attack Mënya and killed themselves on another low experienced unit.... Ah the disadvantage of counterattack...
    • Tried to bait leader (Thrag) with Li’sar.
    • Thrag attacked Tedë (Shaman) instead...
  7. The usual routine.
  8. Attacked using shaman and sorceress in melee to win. :lol:
Okay to summarize what happened, correct use of counterattack will destroy your enemies.


Review of dialogs and suggestions (for 1.14.8 / 1.14.7)

Disclaimer: This is not meant as a full review of dialogs and explanations, but a partial one, because I originally created this post to highlight counterattack and not dialogues. (I blame Galdrad :eng: :lol:) My suggestions has the possibility on not being able to up to standard including and not limited to: the need to “use” old english, translation may have different considerations, modification of dialog and Galdrad’s balance to be a character or a teacher that talks too much out of character.

Turn:
  1. Galdrad wrote:Hang on! You need to gather your forces. Or do you intend to fight the orcs single-handedly?
    Galdrad wrote:Unfortunately, none of your troops survived your training, so you will have to recruit new units. If you had any veteran troops, you could have recalled them to battle this scenario. More experienced units would have been of help against these orcs.
    I killed them alone! Now you shame me, for not doing what Delfador wants? Traitors! :lol:

    Anyways weird timing, he said “hang on!” in a hurried tone then suddenly, he said something that he’s disappointed about? Traitor to the princess!

    I think alone would fit more than single-handedly.
    Elvish Archer wrote:Unlike the Elvish Fighter, which has strong melee attacks, the Elvish Archer has strong ranged attacks. It’s useful to attack enemy units with strong melee attacks with strong ranged attacks, and vice versa. This allows your units to take less damage overall when your enemy counterattacks.
    This allows your units to take less damage overall when your enemy attacks.

    (Assuming that those units can retaliate, counterattack is the attack you do in relation to the attacking unit!)

    Abilities and Weapon Specials 1 wrote:... In this case, the Elvish Shaman has the Heal ability, which allows her to heal allied adjacent units 4 hitpoints at the start of each turn.


    ... In this case, Elvish Shamans has the ability to Heal, which allows her to heal allied units adjacent to them, for 4 hitpoints, following the start of a new turn.
    Invalid, because I didn’t update, ouch!
    Galdrad wrote:While none of your recruited units can move yet, you still can. You need more income; there are some villages near the keep you can capture.
    near the keep you can capture. -> near your keep, that you should capture.

    I skipped other dialogs, because it’s already a word choice and not a suggestion.

    Income and Upkeep should tell something about 1 level = 1 more gold to pay...
  2. Li’sar wrote:Alright, The bridge it is, then, but I’ll be careful about the crossing.
    Alright, The bridge it is, then. I’ll try to be careful.

    (I don’t know what “about the crossing” means if that’s about the banks or the bridge, so it doesn’t make sense to me anyway.)
    Galdrad wrote:The Orcish Grunt is still blocking our path. ....
    Relax, you didn’t even tell me to bait him. You traitor! (Not like it matters)
    Galdrad wrote:.... Move them into position so they can attack next turn. There are also other villages on this side of the river. You should secure them for income and healing.
    Move one of your units, into the Grunt’s vision, and position your other units nearby, so they can surround the Grunt and attack on your next turn! There are also scattered villages, on this side of the river. You should secure them for income, healing and to prevent it, from falling into your enemy’s hands.

    (It should be modified to be better than what I said. He talks a lot anyway... and it’s probably too long and early?)

    Ah yeah there should be a narrator after this, that tells you to check the enemy’s vision using a hotkey....
    Galdrad wrote:.... It is indeed a good idea to keep your leader safe and protected and in range of your keep early in the game. ....
    .... It is indeed a good idea to keep yourself, as the leader, safe and protected, within the range of your keep, early in the game. ....
    Galdrad wrote:.... Careful!
    Careful! .... (basically careful should be at the start of that dialog as it probably has more impact than at the end of the whole dialog)
    Undo wrote:Don’t forget, you can press u to undo most things if you make a mistake.
    Don’t forget, you can press u to undo most things, if you moved by mistake.

    (You can also right click a unit to undo.)
  3. Galdrad wrote:No. Once you move close to an enemy unit, you are in its Zone of Control and cannot move further that turn. To move your troops onto that island without wading slowly through the water, you’ll have to kill the grunt.
    (Either Grunt or grunt, pick one for consistency....)
    Galdrad wrote:No. Once you move close to an enemy unit, you are in its Zone of Control and cannot move further that turn. To move your troops onto that island without wading slowly through the water, you’ll have to kill the Grunt.
    This dialog should check if it’s possible to surround this Grunt, depending on the position of units, it is possible to bypass him with proper “baiting” and unit positions.
    Zone of Control wrote:The hexes immediately around a unit constitute its Zone of Control.
    The units that can constitute its own Zone of Control around the surrounding hexes, are level 1 units and above.
    Zone of Control wrote:When an enemy unit enters those hexes, they cannot move any further that turn.
    Units will not be able to freely use all movement, when moving inside of another hostile unit’s Zone of Control. It is possible to move around Zone of Control, except if they’re surrounded at the start of their turn. While being surrounded by hostile enemies, you can only move one hex at a time regardless of how quick your units is.

    (Could be phrased better and this is probably too long.)
    Zone of Control wrote:(An exception are units with the skirmisher ability, who are unaffected by Zone of Control)
    (The exception to this is units that have a skirmisher ability. They are not affected by zone of control.)
    Zone of Control wrote:This can be used to create a blockade to prevent stronger enemies from reaching key locations, such as villages, even if you have limited manpower.
    Zone of control can be used to create a blockade, to prevent stronger enemies from swarming and reaching key locations, such as villages, even if you have limited units/resources.

    (Manpower, manpower dialog could be kept, but this my personal choice, I’d picked resources.)
    Rowinna wrote:Using me to attack is risky! I can slow the opponent with my ranged attack, but I hope you have a plan if I miss!
    But you’re on a 70% terrain :whistle: ....
    Li’sar wrote:I hope my units survive the counter-attack if I can’t take this grunt out this turn. I’d better grab more villages if I can and move everyone closer for next turn.
    If, I can’t take this Grunt out on my turn, I hope my units survive after the grunt attacks on their turn. I’d better grab more villages if I can and move everyone closer on my next turn.

    (The use of “my” probably isn’t old english and grunt could be Grunt. I also don’t get the everything closer part... could be worded something with relevance to the situation)

    The speaker’s (Konrad/Li’sar if they use the same dialog) words may encourage reckless positions and actions (though it doesn’t matter at this case due to the grunt being alone and it being day time).
    Galdrad wrote:If one of your Shamans stands just behind your wounded units, she will heal them each 4 hit points at the beginning of the next turn.
    If one of your Shamans stands just behind your wounded units, she will heal them 4 hit points each (unit) at the beginning of your next turn.

    (It is better to be “possessive” by using “you/your” and not “the” and “them”. The “possiveness” (for the lack of a better word to use) will increase readability by imitating a conversation to you. Though translation will be a problem, so I understand if that won’t be a part of it.)
    Sorima wrote:I also gained experience from striking the killing blow!
    Weird sentence, can’t pinpoint what’s wrong but there’s something ... eerie about it ...
  4. Galdrad wrote:We need to occupy that village, otherwise they will take it next turn! Move a unit into the village to stop the orcs capturing it. Whichever unit you choose will benefit from village’s healing, too.
    We need to occupy that village, otherwise they will take it on their next turn! Move one of your units into the village, to stop the orcs from capturing it. Whichever unit you will choose can benefit from the village’s healing.
  5. Galdrad wrote:Careful! It is now nighttime. Orcs are chaotic, which means their attacks are now 25% stronger. By day, their attacks are 25% weaker, which is a noticeable difference. You are lawful: stronger by day and weaker at night. Your elvish warriors are neutral: unaffected by the time of day.
    Careful! The sun has fallen and it is now nighttime. Orcs are chaotic in night, which means, their attacks are now 25% stronger. Once the sun has risen to its peak that is after the dawn of the day, their attacks would be 25% weaker. (Li’sar/Konrad) you are lawful: stronger by day and weaker at night. Your elvish warriors are neutral: unaffected by the time of day.

    Make use of your difference on your enemy, and increase your chances, whenever possible!

    (..........needs better explanation but I can’t make one ...)
    Time of Day wrote:During a scenario, the time of day will shift as turns pass. There are four alignments a unit may be: Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic, or Liminal. Each alignment gets a different bonus or handicap depending on the time of day. You can hover over the sky image below the minimap on the right to see the current time of the day and who has the advantage.
    During a scenario, the time of day will shift as turns pass. There are four alignments a unit may have: Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic, or Liminal. Each alignment gets a different damage bonus or handicap, depending on the time of day. You can hover over the sky image below the minimap on the right corner of your screen, to see the current time of day. You can use this information to gather day of time cycle for the current scenario.

    Time of day can be affected by terrains, such as inside a cave, and abilities, such as illuminates that can shine even in night.(Not necessary?)

    (Please insert better wording than what I wrote.)
    Galdrad wrote:It’s very dangerous to stand in water when there are enemies about! ....
    It’s very dangerous to stand in water when there are enemies abound! ....
    Galdrad wrote:Well done! The island village is ours. You can use the tress to set up a blockade against the orcs; they can only come across the bridge one by one without wading through the water, and you will be securely on a terrain with good defense.
    Well done! The island village is ours. You can use the tress to set up a blockade against the orcs; they can only come across the bridge one by one without wading through the water, and you will be securely on a terrain with good defense.





I skipped a ton of other info, but I think counterattack should be part of another tutorial.

Also there should be a tutorial to apply all these knowledge as a “final test” (without dialogs).
Attachments
Wesnoth_Tutorial_Part_II_replay_1.12.6.gz
The replay for 1.12.6
(20.12 KiB) Downloaded 60 times
Wesnoth Tutorial — Part II replay shaman only 1.14.8 .gz
The replay for 1.14.8 / 1.14.7 shaman only
(20.93 KiB) Downloaded 56 times

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