Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Feedback for the game tutorial.

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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by nuorc »

Continued from: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 26#p537726

I like this part II, and I believe it's the first time I ever played it. It shows an actual battlefield situation and teaches a lot of important aspects. However, there are some things I think could be improved:

Orders are often 1 action (1 hex) late (off):
- can't move shammie next to archer, though I'm ordered to
- can't cancel shammie-attack after the cancel order
- the hint to level my unit instead of letting it die came actually after it leveled

The line about "healers only able to heal 4 hp" struck me as being wrong in this general wording, better would be sth like "your healers..."

One thing that could be added is "Show Enemy Move" / Strg+V, that would also be an opportunity to introduce the Actions menu.

Overall, good work! (Keep it up when revising. :P )
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Remellion »

I have had the good fortune to be able to introduce Wesnoth to a friend recently, so here is some feedback on the tutorial. It was done in French, which is neither of our main languages (don't ask why), but we understand it passably well. My friend has played the Civilisation series of games before, so is familiar with some turn-based strategy.

I mostly let him control it himself, pointing out only a few occasional tips to complement the hints and text, and if I saw something particularly wrong like trying to melee the full hp orcish leader from flat with a fighter.

Points that trip up a new player:
- Notice at the start of turn 2 Li'sar captures a village, before attacking the orc. This causes the instruction to recruit more troops at the end of the turn to be unattainable. (This was a result of the tutorial instructing the player to capture villages at the end of the previous turn - indeed, he remembered well the instruction.) An explanation of why the undo is not available after attacking would be good too.
- Notice on turn 2 the elvish archer attacks the orcish grunt from the water, despite Galdrad advising to undo. This is because the order was given as a "move and attack" and there was no time to undo after the message. This is opposed to moving the unit to the hex, then giving the unit instruction to attack after moving, which the tutorial assumes. Design flaw?
- The idea of a multi-turn move was confusing when first introduced - he simply wanted to move the unit once on each turn instead of giving one order to move to the village over 2 turns. Not really important, but hey.
- As noted, at the end of turn 2, recruitment was not possible because Li'sar had already moved. The prompts to move Li'sar also become desynched with the actual game state.
- ZoC is a concept familiar from the Civ series, so my friend got that immediately.
- The idea that orcish units could cross the (shallow) water at the east edge was not noticed by my friend until some turns later, even with Galdrad's suggestion to send the eastern fighter down south.
- In the middle of the battle on the island, my friend asked "Is there no way for 2 units to swap positions?" Well no, except by moving one at a time, working around ZoC and terrain. Not a problem, just an interesting remark.
- Around turn 9 or 10 he realised the orcs were crossing. Not a severe problem.
- The idea that villages are good stuck. Notice from turns 10-14 the elvish archer swung round to capture villages south.
- As seen in the replay when attacking the orc leader, the idea of using advantageous terrain is not completely clear for a beginner. Also, he forgot archers could melee and fighters had a bow until I reminded him.
- He wanted also to bring Li'sar to the front lines to boost troop morale. I took some time to explain the leadership ability then. (With Galdrad as a convenient example.) Is this common in other turn-based strategy games?
- I suggested using the shaman to slow enemies twice. RNG seems to hate my attempts to show the power of slowing.
- The hints that popped up from time to time, were "so random".

Points I noticed as a Wesnoth player:
- The other effect of slowing (ralentissement), that is to reduce enemy movement, is not explained.
- The concept of movement points and terrain movement cost is not dealt with clearly.
- The hints that popped up from time to time, are indeed very random. They should be tied to something... I dunno. The triggers for events seem strange, it's easy to get an instruction and be unable to comply. Odd for a tutorial, but a problem that's been around since forever.
- Unfortunate that both close-to-levelling archers died. It would have been cooler for my friend to see a level 2 unit to control.
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

I originally played the tutorial back on 1.8
I played again recently on 1.12.5 & on 1.13.2+dev @ 2016-01-13
My comments and attached replay are for the 1.13.2+dev version

The dialog & explanition improvements between 1.12.5 & 1.13.2+dev are not as dramatic as part 1 was, but it is a bit more polished than the older version
I like how the traits explanation was moved to part 1. Also that there is dialog to handle advanced units.

As far as playing the tutorial:
On turn 4, I realized I couldn't seize the island village without heavy losses due to the wolf riders and nightfall, so I fell back to the river bank to meet the orcs there. If the goal is to allow the player to seize & defend the island for the initial wave, it seems that there's too high of a possibility of things playing out to make that difficult.

Some additional things I think would be good for new players to be introduced to would be the benefits of the Menu sections: Statistics, Unit List, & Status Table. However, I'm not sure if the best place would be here. Perhaps as part of The South Guard campaign might be better for some/all of them.
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by nuorc »

As said before, trying to watch my old replays or SigurdFireDragon's with the current stable version of BfW didn't work, so I made some with 1.12.5:
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Another 2 cents:

I believe

Code: Select all

‘Strong’ means a unit does more damage
should be

Code: Select all

‘Strong’ means a unit does more melee damage
Having a dexterous unit is not possible?

I think

Code: Select all

‘Quick’ means a unit can move one tile further each turn
is incorrect, or imprecise at best; a quick unit has one more MP and might move one more hex (depending on terrain). I think that same tip also occasionally shows up on the title screen and might also be revised.

And still:
nuorc wrote:- the hint to level my unit instead of letting it die came actually after it leveled

The line about "healers only able to heal 4 hp" struck me as being wrong in this general wording, better would be sth like "your healers..."

One thing that could be added is "Show Enemy Move" / Strg+V, that would also be an opportunity to introduce the Actions menu.

Overall, good work! (Keep it up when revising. :P )
I have a cunning plan.

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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Hestelvar »


This part of the tutorial offers an good demonstration of in-game mechanics. I particularly enjoyed the map’s varied strategic possibilities.
However Galdrad only discusses two of these; attacking via the ford or the bridge. He fails to mention waiting on the north bank for the orcs. This admittedly unheroic strategy would be my choice if I encountered this scenario in a campaign.
Galdrad’s instructions are to capture the village on the island immediately, thereby engaging the orcs at night! A baptism of fire that makes the scenario harder than necessary and risks giving beginners an inflated sense of villages importance.

Perhaps outline all strategies and leave the decision to Konrad/Li'sar. Alternatively this could be resolved by substituting the village for say - an imprisoned elf who will be executed if not rescued in time - or enlarge the island to accommodate several villages thereby granting it strategic significance.

Difficult out of 10?
Wait for orcs on the north bank 4.
Meet orcs on the island at night 7.

I liked how newly levelled units made little speeches outlining there enhanced capabilities, but their claimed attack stats became slightly inaccurate if the unit was strong or dexterous.

Give the orc leader something to say.
Either instructive eg. “Lads! If those cursed elves try to capture our island this night we’ll make em bleed.”
Or upon death eg. “I die, but my kin will avenge me. This land shall be ours! This is only the beginning.”

As a final idea I feel beginners would benefit from a longer tutorial (in addition to The South Guard) with extra scenarios to introduce important tools like the Status Table.
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by devavrata »

I played this tutorial after the rest of the game (i don't recall the tutorial being present the first time I played Wesnoth - anyway, that was years ago), so I can't truly judge how good it is at teaching, but I feel the basic mechanics of the game are well introduced, and the guidance to the player is well provided by marking the places where the player should make actions.
Part II does also introduce the cycle night/day and some other features, so the player gets to know everything that is needed to start playing.

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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by TheCatLord »

Since I'm fond of Elvish Shamans and very good at advancing them, I've disappointed that there's no dialogue for them levelling up. As such, I've come up with some suggestions for that. I did my best to keep them short and simple like the other advancement dialogues while still illustrating the key points (the Druid is primarily a stronger healer while the Sorceress is more suited for fighting). I hope you find them helpful.

For druids:
"Advancing a level has fully healed me!
I heal units around me by 8 hitpoints per turn. as if they were in a village."

For sorceresses:
"Advancing a level has fully healed me!
Instead of healing, I have a powerful faerie fire attack, and I always have a 70% chance to hit with my Magical ability. Use me to weaken tough or hard-to-hit units."

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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part II

Post by Konrad2 »

I've noticed something about the warning regarding standing in shallow water. It is only triggered by 9 hexes. As long as I avoid those 9 hexes and instead only move in the other shallow water hexes, I won't be warned at all.
Wesnoth Tutorial — Part II Turn 7.gz
Marked them all.
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There is also no warning about moving into swamps. (which should be added, right?)

EDIT: There is also a lack of explanations about units that advance further than lvl2. I mean, sure, it's not very likely to happen, but still...
And recalling a lvl2 unit does not trigger the explanation about it. (No explantion when you lvl up a unit in Part 1...but that's the wrong thread for it.)
Wesnoth Tutorial — Part II-Auto-Save1.gz
Have fun recalling.
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