Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Feedback for the game tutorial.

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UK1
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by UK1 »

I never really noticed the tutorial until about four years after I started wesnoth. I checked it out and thought it equivalent to the training camps in the Song of Fire and Ice series where they throw a levy a spear and say "Stick the enemy with this end, hit noisy prisoners with this end. March in beat with the drum." and then boot them out the door. But that's just me.
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ktchong
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Bug report: hero names mixed-up

Post by ktchong »

If I choose Li'sar instead of Konrad as my character in the tutorial, the pop-up menu still says "It is now Konrad's turn" at the beginning of every turn.

I have both Windows and Android versions of the game. Both versions have the same problem.

Both versions are the most current: 1.8.6 for Windows and 1.8.6.2 for Android.

I use Windows 7 Home 64-bit on a ThinkPad with Core i3 2.1 GHz, and Android Gingerbread on LG Esteem/Revolution.
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Kanzil
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by Kanzil »

There's a mistake in the very first screen of the tutorial- it says "who would you like to play" rather than "who would you like to play as ".
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tuggyne
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by tuggyne »

Kanzil wrote:There's a mistake in the very first screen of the tutorial- it says "who would you like to play" rather than "who would you like to play as ".
Actually, "play" can be transitive as well as intransitive, so while the usage is a bit unusual it's not wrong. (One can "play Wesnoth", and one can "play Konrad in Wesnoth", as well as "play as Konrad in Wesnoth".)
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nuorc
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by nuorc »

After reading some posts about the tutorial I decided to play it again after a few years... So here are my 2 cents.

First, the tutorial has changed a lot from how I remember it, and it probably improved a lot, too. I believe it is good, as it is very instructive, so the rest is mainly nitpicking:
- Why can't Konrad level up? I don't really see a reason for that...
- After I decided to play through, the same question again and again if I wanted to continue was annoying; I think it would be better if the question was asked once and then 'Quit' is introduced. Actually, since there is more in this part to learn, I think the question should be kicked altogether.
- The victory could be mainlined, meaning if I kill the quintains on turn 10 I don't get to hang around for two more turns + gold carry-over. (Additional info from turns 11/12 could still be presented.)
- Is the heavy user-interaction with replays intended? (I have to click away every dialog/order...)

Continued: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 28#p537728

EDIT: link
Attachments
Wesnoth_Tutorial_Part_I_replay.gz
(11.84 KiB) Downloaded 579 times
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SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

I originally played the tutorial back on 1.8
I played again recently on 1.12.5 & on 1.13.2+dev @ 2016-01-13
My comments and attached replay are for the 1.13.2+dev version

I think the tutorial does an excellent job: dialog is direct, instructive and to the point. It's a great improvement from 1.12.5
If I listed everything I thought was improved, I'd be here a while.

As far as improvements, maybe getting rid of the option to wrap up early, so it's more in harmony with the scenario objectives of 'Defeat a fierce enemy' and making sure the player doesn't skip any of the useful information later on.

Some dialog seems slightly off:
1. Says "...when you click 'Ok' Konrad will attack..." However, on the Attack Enemy screen the button to start the attack is called 'Attack'.
2. In this scenario Delfador refers to Konrad as 'boy', in scenario 2, Galdrad refers to him as 'young man'. It'd be better to have them consistent with each other. As Konrad is being prepared for the throne in HttT & Li'sar is refered to as 'young lady', I think 'young man is the better option.
Attachments
Wesnoth_Tutorial_—_Part_I_replay-4V0.gz
(12.87 KiB) Downloaded 453 times
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Remellion
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by Remellion »

I have had the good fortune to be able to introduce Wesnoth to a friend recently, so here is some feedback on the tutorial. It was done in French, which is neither of our main languages (don't ask why), but we understand it passably well. My friend has played the Civilisation series of games before, so is familiar with some turn-based strategy.

- There was some difficulty in understanding what happens when clicking/unclicking/right-clicking a unit; some time was spent figuring out how the unit selection works and the associated visual cues (screen greyed/available movement shown etc.)
- The various words for quintaine/pantin/poupée referring to the same thing (the quintain) were confusing at first. Again, not our native language, so maybe it's our problem.
- Bringing Li'sar to the donjon (keep) somehow brought confusion (instead tried bringing her to the château/castle tile several times).

The scenario ends early - I did mention that the dialogue asking if you had understood everything and would be ready to move on is a recurring popup each turn and is a somewhat annoying and bizarre design choice. Maybe it is better for the scenario to end only after all quintains are defeated.

Replay not attached - nothing of value in this very guided scenario.
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nuorc
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by nuorc »

When I tried to watch my old replays or SigurdFireDragon's with the current stable version they didn't make much sense. I thought I'd make new ones with BfW 1.12.5:
Wesnoth_Tutorial_Part_I_replay.gz
(14.24 KiB) Downloaded 461 times
Remellion wrote:The scenario ends early - I did mention that the dialogue asking if you had understood everything and would be ready to move on is a recurring popup each turn and is a somewhat annoying and bizarre design choice. Maybe it is better for the scenario to end only after all quintains are defeated.
I only saw this question once this time playing it, so I thought that was ok; I only finished one turn early, though.


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Hestelvar
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by Hestelvar »

Version 1.13.

I think the tutorial strikes a good balance between providing instruction while still being entertaining.

- Why can’t Konrad/Li’sar level up? In some campaigns levelling up your leader is a priority. I think this gives a misleading impression.

I agree with SigurdFireDragon that -
1. Says "...when you click 'Ok' Konrad will attack..." However, on the Attack Enemy screen the button to start the attack is called 'Attack'.
- could be confusing to a beginner.

- The option to end the scenario early seems both irregular (I’ve never encountered it in a campaign) and unhelpful (the experience gained by judiciously dispatching the Quintains makes the next scenario perceptibly easier). If boredom is a concern maybe the attacks/abilities of the three Quintains could be varied?
Attachments
Wesnoth_Tutorial_—_Part_I_replay.bz2
(11.97 KiB) Downloaded 413 times
devavrata
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by devavrata »

I played this tutorial after the rest of the game (i don't recall the tutorial being present the first time I played Wesnoth - anyway, that was years ago), so I can't truly judge how good it is at teaching, but I feel the basic mechanics of the game are well introduced, and the guidance to the player is well provided by marking the places where the player should make actions.
Part I has also funny dialogues that make it interesting.
Konrad2
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by Konrad2 »

I played it just now (1.14.0). And I've got an idea! (no idea if it is any good)
How about making one more tutorial, one for Li'sar. As it is now, the tutorial is 'historically accurate' for Konrad, but absolutly not for Li'sar.

New tutorial scenario(tree)
Intro (choosing leader)
1a (Konrads training)
1b (Li'sars training)
2a
2b

Li'sars tutorial would be like a training session in the palace, under the care of Asheviere or her generals? ^^
(Maybe with that Duelist that tries to ambush Konrad when Li'sar and Konrad fight for the first time?)

PS: Why give Konrad and Li'sar not the chance to level up? Is there any specific reason for that?
And how about making the units they recruit, recalls in HttT (or reinforcements at some point)? :D That would be awesome.

EDIT: After your leader recruits, order him to move to the village to heal, if he has enough moves left.

EDIT 2: Leveling up a unit makes me miss out on the explanation of it.
Attachments
Wesnoth Tutorial — Part I-Auto-Save12.gz
Level him up and see for yourself. (You probably just didn't expect this to happen.)
(18.48 KiB) Downloaded 364 times
Mawmoocn
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Re: Wesnoth Tutorial: Part I

Post by Mawmoocn »

Tutorial 1 or 2 or maybe an advanced tutorial should hint somewhere about counterattack.

To be clear on my definition of counterattack, it doesn’t mean about the enemy attacking you, it’s about you/the enemy dealing damage when, the enemy/I inevitably attacks you! So if I/enemy attacks the enemy/me and they/I can retaliate, that’s what I call counterattack!

I’ll use two examples.

Wesnoth 1.12.6
Turn
    1. Skip turn. (My side turn)
    2. Enemy attacks!! (We’re both damaged) (Enemy side turn)
    1. Skipped another turn.
    2. Futile (enemy) attack!!! (Sharing damage)
    1. Skip!!!
    2. Oh no! We’re both fatally wounded!
    1. I attacked.:lol:
    2. Doesn’t exist cause I won choose to skip scenario!
To summarize, if I attacked at least once, I could die within my enemy’s turn, because a Quintain’s maximum damage is 15 per attack and Konrad’s hit points are around 32, depending on where full damage activates, it would add more risk the moment I attack and get damaged. At the very least, on turn 4, I can control my options if whether I should heal, retreat or to attack.


Wesnoth 1.14.8 (1.14.7)
Turn
  1. Mandatory attack...
    1. Can’t “skip” turn!!! (So I attacked...)
    2. YES I LUCK COUNTER KILL!!!
  2. Heal
  3. Heal.
  4. Heal...
  5. Finally! Positioned on a place where .... I got heavily injured! ...
  6. Retreat .... heal
  7. And so... I must ... position again...
  8. Heal!
  9. I positioned on a bad place again...
  10. Heal
  11. Heal.
  12. Moved to a village where I meet my enemy!?
    1. OH YES! Skip a turn!!!
    2. Enemy died on their turn... Pitiful Just as planned :whistle:
  13. And we go position baited ourselves again...
  14. Retreating again to heal....
  15. Glorious skip a turn!
  16. So I did the stupid plan... to move bait it.
  17. Part 2 but nice village healing!
    1. To retre- Ahem! To "?????" my village to my enemy!
    2. Village has been shared to your enemy. Plan successful!
  18. Move to keep cause why not?
    1. Oh NO! I attacked and I'm (probably) gonna die!
    2. Phew! Enemy succumbed to my counter! (One more hit would've gotten me killed!)
  19. Healing is fun...
  20. Yes so I did it it consecutively. (Heal)
  21. ATTACK!
  22. Retreat......
  23. Position again
  24. Retreat for the last time?
  25. This is the last heal!
  26. The last bait position.
  27. Of course you know retreating is how it works... The last heal was fake! (Heal... :lol:)
  28. Baiting was unnecessary but I'm so concerned that I got lied by myself!
  29. Do I even need to heal??? (Healing is so fun :eng:)
  30. Goodbye my enemy, you are my healer punch buddy bag!
(I picked Li’sar on 1.14)

To summarize, luck is more apparent, when you’re not in control of managing attacks and damage, which is apparent on turn 2 (enemy) side 2 and on turn 22 (enemy) side 2.

In contrast to these “lucky” turns, turn 14 has 0% chance of death if you don’t attack unlike .

Basically if you can control on who kills units (by making use of “side” turns), you can partially control on who dies.

It is more complicated to do outside of tutorial, it probably isn’t recommended to be part of tutorial 1 & 2.


So why do I skip turns?
(Long answer)
Spoiler:
That’s because the enemy and I have near equal opportunity to deal similar damage. (Short answer)

The difference between the two versions is, 1.12 will allow you to kill the Quintain by skipping turns (and you can skip scenario after your first Quintain kill) because you can retreat, while 1.14 doesn’t allow you to skip attacking for the first Quintain on the first turn.

1.12 downsides
  • You can skip turns without talking to Delfador.
  • Finishing early may skip tooltips.
  • Delfador can be attacked if you skip attacking on your first turn once Delfador summons the Quintain.
  • Can’t kill every Quintain alone.
1.14 downsides
  • You can’t skip attacking on turn 1. (It’s understandable to teach a player not to totally “skip” a turn, but that’s not how it works outside of tutorial.)
  • The only way to subdue the first Quintain alone (without recruiting), is to get lucky within 2-3 turns or to position yourself with a nearby village and bait a Quintain while you stay in a village (still needs luck). (Not exactly bad but yeah, I’m petty :lol:)
  • Replay needs you to pick a side to play the replay.
  • You can’t skip attacking on turn 2 when “solo”.
  • + I was lazy to update to 1.14.11....
These downsides are very situational, so they probably don’t actually affect the majority of players.

Counterattack is hard to calculate in “fast” games, unless you have trained your mind to look out for these type of unprecedented danger, you’ll be caught by an unsuspecting surprise and “probably” blame RNG for the result. It will be nice to have this information on a future tutorial and probably not on tutorial 1 because it might be complex to learn.


Some improvements to leveling and income information.
Advancement wrote:However, second level units cost twice as much to support as first level units.
However, second level units cost an additional 1 gold more (per turn) to support when compared to a first level unit. Upkeep increases for every level gained.


I can’t think of better sentence structure, so it should be similar to the message that upkeep increases per level.

Anyways, counterattack tutorial would be complex to learn, so it probably belongs to a different tutorial.
Attachments
Wesnoth Tutorial — Part I replay1.14.8.gz
The replay for 1.14.8 (1.14.7) pick Li'sar for no errors
(13.94 KiB) Downloaded 115 times
Wesnoth_Tutorial_Part_I_replay1.12.6.gz
The replay for 1.12.6
(12.04 KiB) Downloaded 112 times
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